Arresting of 15 UCI students in a protest

[golgol85]

[donsaeid]

ina chera dast az sare irania var nemidaran?

iraniaro mesle japonia to jange jahanie dovom mikhan bezaran to camps!

[mike435]

ina chera dast az sare irania var nemidaran?

iraniaro mesle japonia to jange jahanie dovom mikhan bezaran to camps!

what are you saying
why are you desecrating the japanies american sufrage
iranian americans are thriving like no other minority group in this country
opertunity left and right
heads of industry
heads of academia
participants in social programs
contributing in every facit of the american system disporptionatly

japanies americans were put in concentration camps
denied basic rights
striped of their american citizen ships
striped of the right of owning land
bared from socioty
how does it even compare

these guys in the artical deserved what they got you throw condems at a speaker you deserv to be stoped the second time
i have seen many protesters protesting many things and the police only start to react when you act like an ediot
and i look more middle eastern than anyone.

[mike435]

by the way who is this andy rand and Yaron Brook

[mike435]

wow what kined of crazy group is this

they are all over the place with agreeing and disagreenin

they get neo con votes yet they are against for abortion and against religious based inititavis

they hate the enviormantalist yet they are free market people


they are for attacking iran yet are extremly against the iraq

they critizise war yet they say it is moral to turn faluja into dust

never thoght you can have one group that can be so much all over the place

[mike435]

by the way the laroush people are also very crazy

i wish they police would have forced both of them to go at it

[golgol85]

And here is some info on Yaron:Yaron Brook is the current president and executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute. Born in Israel 1961 Brook received his B.Sc. in civil engineering from the Technion, and an MBA and Ph.D. in finance in 1994 from the University of Texas at Austin. Formerly a professor of finance (at Santa Clara University), Brook is an expert on Objectivist philosophy, particularly in its applications to business and foreign policy; due to his service in Israeli army intelligence he is also considered an expert on the history of the Middle East.

He advocates an American policy supporting Israel against terrorism. Despite Brook's speaking positively about scholars such as Daniel Pipes, he is highly critical of neoconservatism (and conservatism in general). He opposes President Bush's handling of the Iraq War because he believes that Bush has needlessly sacrificed American troops in order to appease the international community and the United Nations. He also advocates military action against Iran and support of the Iranian students opposing their government.

During an appearance on The O'Reilly Factor, Impact Section: Aftermath of Fallujah Activities, on Friday, December 17, 2004, he suggested to bring the "war to civilians" by turning "Fallujah into dust." Video recording. The Factor's online summery reads:

"Some observers believe the United States should take the gloves off in Fallujah and other Iraqi hot spots. "We want to see the rules of engagement in Iraq change totally," said Yaron Brook of the Ayn Rand Institute. "The only way to win this insurgency is for America to be a lot more brutal. We should start bringing the consequences of this war to the civilians who are harboring terrorists and insurgents. We brought the Japanese people to their knees, and that is the only way you can establish democracy in a culture that is opposed to freedom." The Factor argued that brutalizing civilians could have grave consequences. "We would lose the high moral ground, and create more enemies. We do need to get tougher, but we have to do it smarter." [1]

In October 2006, Brook delivered a lecture on the subject of Islamic totalitarian states to an audience at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA). He argued that such states pose a severe threat to the security of western nations, and suggested that killing up to hundreds of thousands of their supporters would bring about their defeat. Brook also called for a renewal of pride in Western civilization. The lecture was sponsored by UCLA L.O.G.I.C. and Bruins for Israel.

hmm, now i see why people may have protested his coming to UCI. He seems a bit "vahshi" when saying the civillians should be brutalized. I dont agree with most of what she says, I think women can be president, i think women should enjoy sex as much as men. Ayn Rand may have been too extreme in her portrayal as man as the one in charge and woman subsurvient to him.

[zubin]

This is a perfect example of why there needs to be objectivity on social issues. Otherwise you simply have two fully ideological sides going at it like here. Actually, something very similar happened at my old campus in Vancouver and that prompted me to start the environmental psychology club that essentially looks at solutions objectively. What I don't understand is how anyone could mask their ideology with "objectivity" like Rand does. She should get a medal for evil!

The full article and discussion on UBC campus fight: http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/2006/10/17/...ion-on-campus/

Our proposal (called the environmental psychology research group) for scientific debate on the issue:

"On August 24th, 2006, the Student Administrative Council (SAC) of the Alma Mater Society (AMS) of the University of British Columbia (UBC) constituted the Environmental Psychology Research Group (EPRG) of UBC as an official UBC undergraduate student club. The EPRG of UBC was constituted given that it was interdisciplinary, provided an alternative, objective and scientific framework as a guide for its research, media and initiatives, and that it addressed divisive social topics. Without explicit consideration of the Innovative Projects Fund of the AMS, the EPRG of UBC was founded upon the need within the UBC community for a constructive and objective platform for discussing social issues (visibility), as well as the discovery and innovative integration of a framework for doing so (innovation).

A recent report by the Ubyssey brought up the need for constructive discourse on social issues straight-forwardly, stating that, “Campus politics have always been flash points for idealism, naiveté, delusions, conflict and sometimes extremism.” In observing two student-based reactions to the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in the summer 2006, they noted that there are respectable academic approaches currently at UBC, as well as divisive ideological ones:

The atmosphere created by the two academics was one of common language and accountability whereas the one the week before was one of irreconcilable differences and desperation.

Though there are academics who maintain respectable and professional language and behavior in proposing views and solutions, the issue of constructive discourse is a totally different matter. This difference is illuminated in statements by the same authors that, “The two panelists managed their considerable differences with impeccable civility, encouraging the audience to do likewise”, and “despite differences in perspective no hostility was present within the room” [emphasis added].

The above suggests that even among academic elites there is no explicit objective and constructive framework to be utilized for analyzing social problems and their solutions. This is in fact true. Though there is acknowledgement of the concept of truth in elite research, and accurate analysis, there is no explicit framework that passes the test of objectivity which we can systematically follow when engaging in dialogue. However, if we wanted to solve heated disputes on such devastating problems such as prevention of AIDS, extreme conflict and inequality, human rights, and global warming, it would be very useful to have such a framework.

EPRG Framework

The EPRG is an interdisciplinary undergraduate research group with the most definitive feature that its framework is a systematic, objective and scientific framework for exploring good versus bad human outcomes. Each of the stated problems above fall into this category. That is, when we say we want to try and solve any of those problems, we are looking to change the state of the behavior and psychology of the persons involved so that a good outcome comes about. The problem of crime is to be turned into safety. The problem of disease to health. Global warming to far less green house gas emissions, and so on. It is unthinkable and counter-intuitive how many modern problems are problems of behavior and psychology, yet each of these controversial and divisive problems share this feature, and this gives grounds for the EPRG’s dealing of each of them.

When the problem is our starting point and achieving a good result is our goal, we naturally bump into the things that need to be solved in order for the final solution to come about. This is the popular “problem-based” approach and is often used on more specific topics such as learning math through the process of solving a real life problem, for example through finding out one’s debt, than these larger and more controversial problems in which the EPRG applies it. In order to solve any of the problems above, there are three main things involved, represented by the following diagram.

When we want to bring about a solution to a problem involving behavior and psychology, we usually approach those involved and attempt to bring about that change. There are different approaches of teaching to bring about learning. There are different approaches to reconciliation that bring about differences in hostility and peace. Therefore there is some interaction going on between us, who want to solve the problem, and they who are exhibiting the problem. This is what we mean by researching a solution to a problem. The other alternatives are pharmaceuticals, brain chips or force to bring about a solution.

The EPRG categorically rejects those approaches mainly because they either do not work at all or are only temporary solutions. They also seem ethically flawed in that they do not have the “human” part of human-environment interaction, including a person’s freedom and free will. However, this topic is more complex than it seems and there may be exceptions. As mentioned, with a focus on human-environment interaction, the EPRG categorically does not advocate these approaches. However, when, for instance, someone justifies force against a person on the basis of others’ safety, the EPRG can not necessarily justify its own method over that method. It is a philosophical issue requiring philosophical discussion and inquiry, and that is one reason why there is a philosophical aspect above to discussion solutions to human problems. There is one other time where philosophy will need to be invoked, namely when “solving a problem” seems to imply coercion in the first place. For instance, regarding global warming policy, perhaps any policy would be forceful and coercive because the target persons do not consent to the policy.

These boulders may seem to pose weaknesses to the EPRG’s approach, but they instead illuminate the strength of the EPRG’s approach. They tell us where there are problems in solving a problem, and therefore the current status of solving a problem that can be continuously researched, debated, monitored and progressed. For instance, we might find a clear fundamental flaw in the argument for coercion in one case. Or, we might find that when people are informed about global warming, they consent to policies for it and the issue becomes a matter of bringing about awareness. In fact, this is the very argument proposed by Al Gore , which the EPRG could examine closely before moving forward. The third and last aspect of any problem are the elements unique to that specific problem and place. AIDS deals with various cures and treatments and these must be known as part of researching prevention of the spread of AIDS. AIDS in Africa is mostly transmitted through sexual behavior while in North America it is transmitted largely through contaminated needles. In both continents there are unique political dynamics and contexts that need to be considered in order to propose a viable solution. Sometimes there is speculation on these unique dynamics. For instance, regarding global warming, a minority of scientists dispute the scientific basis that human behavior is causing it. Regarding the Hezbollah-Israel conflict, some believe Hezbollah seeks to destroy Israel while some believe they are a resistance movement attempting solely to weaken Israel. These, like the philosophical issues, put progress on hold while investigation takes place. Unlike the philosophical issues, they are matters of fact which. Some may be knowable, some only discernable through probability or some perhaps unknowable. However, focus on these points of fact as they relate to solving our problem is likely to be fruitful, and at the very least bring about biases and confounds in various arguments put forward.

Last, a note should be made on the first aspect of human-environment interaction that this is a “hard science” so to speak, with clear and predictable answers similar to how chemistry does. This is when we consider the human’s interaction with the environment as a whole. A television program may have a negative effect in one community and not another depending on some other environmental variable. In general, any aspect of the human’s environment—linguistic, physical, natural, social, cultural, political, economic, and so forth—can have an influence, although the consideration of each of these make solutions predictable, non-ideological and enduring... continued

[zubin]

sorry to divert the topic away a little, the main topic being police brutality. Yes, they were unjustified. What kind of civilized society is that? I don't think this would happen in Vancouver, at least not as bad.

[mike435]

sorry to divert again i know why some belive she her philosophy or even she is evil
becuase she does not that things can have intrisic good with in theme selfs

[golgol85]

There is no such thing as diversion with the points both you of gentlemen have brought up.

As I mentioned before, the UCPD is acting out against the very students it is supposed to be protecting. I guess freedom of speech is the issue at hand here, the students were protesting and excercizing their right to voice their opinion, but I am guessing freedom of speech just isnt what it used to be. If you attend a UC school, expect to be arrested for voicing your opinion and to be tazered if you are in a library and you look middle eastern (you just might have thoughts of blowing up the library as a suicide bomber, who is to know?). I read the article and was saddened that no one really made a big deal about what happened at UCI. I wish someone had recorded the arresting of the 15 students on cell phone too, maybe then we could all get worked up and I could prove to mike that its not because the student at UCLA was iranian that i got upset. I do may not agree with most of what Ayn Rand talked about, especially the ideology that women are basically inferior to men, but since we are at an academic institition, then the students who pay for the bulidings maintainance have a right to be able to go and protest and disagree with what is being said in a lecture hall they pay for with their tuition. if they dont have a right to object, then they shouldnt be held accountable for paying for that lecture hall's maintainance. this may seem like an elementary argument, but Rand herself is against pacifism, so i am sure she is quite pleased that a club sporting her name has caused such uproar. everything is connected in my mind, so nothing is good in and of itself.

I guess Yaron Brooks forgot that Rand preached that an individual "must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life". This is what the students were doing, so in a sense they were obliging Rand's ideology despite trying to protest it. He could have mentioned this in his speech, but he obviously doesnt know as much about his topic of lecture as he thinks. Since when has singing the "hail hitler" song become a cause of getting arrested? hmm, unless the entire world is now worried that we are going to forget the halocast. baba, we all will remember the halocast, no need to put people in jail for singing a politically charged song. the muslims werent even involved in this one guys, so now anyone who speaks out against anyone is arrested? La Roche will be the new "terrorist" group, and next thong you know people will be commenting that maybe its funded by muslim fundementalists. i am just plain pissed off. The Ayn Rand ghalat mikone ke ideologyeh kasi ro ke follow mikone ghabool nadareh! These students were not allowed to express themselves, and their "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" has definately been impeded, something Ayn Rand believes people should actively pursue. Tell that to Yaron Brook.

ramin, in the states we arent even half as advanced as canada when it comes to these kinds of political debates thought we like to think we are ahead of everyone. an environmental psychology research group would prbably be shut down here, especially if its findings were against what mainstream thought to be good or bad. If Ayn Rand's thoughts were shown to be bad, the groups like hillel and any other jewish campus group would be sure to have protests and have the environmental psychology research group shut down. Sorry ramin, ony civilized societies can take criticism. we just arent at that point yet.

[mike435]

There is no such thing as diversion with the points both you of gentlemen have brought up.

As I mentioned before, the UCPD is acting out against the very students it is supposed to be protecting. I guess freedom of speech is the issue at hand here, the students were protesting and excercizing their right to voice their opinion, but I am guessing freedom of speech just isnt what it used to be. If you attend a UC school, expect to be arrested for voicing your opinion and to be tazered if you are in a library and you look middle eastern (you just might have thoughts of blowing up the library as a suicide bomber, who is to know?). I read the article and was saddened that no one really made a big deal about what happened at UCI. I wish someone had recorded the arresting of the 15 students on cell phone too, maybe then we could all get worked up and I could prove to mike that its not because the student at UCLA was iranian that i got upset. I do may not agree with most of what Ayn Rand talked about, especially the ideology that women are basically inferior to men, but since we are at an academic institition, then the students who pay for the bulidings maintainance have a right to be able to go and protest and disagree with what is being said in a lecture hall they pay for with their tuition. if they dont have a right to object, then they shouldnt be held accountable for paying for that lecture hall's maintainance. this may seem like an elementary argument, but Rand herself is against pacifism, so i am sure she is quite pleased that a club sporting her name has caused such uproar. everything is connected in my mind, so nothing is good in and of itself.

I guess Yaron Brooks forgot that Rand preached that an individual "must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life". This is what the students were doing, so in a sense they were obliging Rand's ideology despite trying to protest it. He could have mentioned this in his speech, but he obviously doesnt know as much about his topic of lecture as he thinks. Since when has singing the "hail hitler" song become a cause of getting arrested? hmm, unless the entire world is now worried that we are going to forget the halocast. baba, we all will remember the halocast, no need to put people in jail for singing a politically charged song. the muslims werent even involved in this one guys, so now anyone who speaks out against anyone is arrested? La Roche will be the new "terrorist" group, and next thong you know people will be commenting that maybe its funded by muslim fundementalists. i am just plain pissed off. The Ayn Rand ghalat mikone ke ideologyeh kasi ro ke follow mikone ghabool nadareh! These students were not allowed to express themselves, and their "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" has definately been impeded, something Ayn Rand believes people should actively pursue. Tell that to Yaron Brook.

ramin, in the states we arent even half as advanced as canada when it comes to these kinds of political debates thought we like to think we are ahead of everyone. an environmental psychology research group would prbably be shut down here, especially if its findings were against what mainstream thought to be good or bad. If Ayn Rand's thoughts were shown to be bad, the groups like hillel and any other jewish campus group would be sure to have protests and have the environmental psychology research group shut down. Sorry ramin, ony civilized societies can take criticism. we just arent at that point yet.

again i dont belive that you only care about things becuase they are related to iranian
i think you for some reason want to prove it to yourself

second bare in mined still today american acadamic instututions are still among the best in the world
they still produce some of the most revolutionary, diverse, idiologies.
also again belive it or not their is more freedom in america than anywere else when it come to highereducation.
theri are some flaws for example to many way to many libreal personal and very few repersantation of concervative thoghts.

also i take offence to the fact that you are singleing out jewsih group infact i take huge offence..

no one should expect to easily penerate mainstream opinion
it takes a fight.




do you you know howmany thousends of people every year from all around the world come here to be educated so they can take advantage of the free and open eduaction system.

among the 20 top school in the world 15 are american
among the top 5 3 are american

america still produces the brighetes most inovative minds
were else can you write and publish thigs that offend so many people and yet you are encoraged to do it

the larouch people fpr example i think they are all brainwashed and insane but i marvel at the fact that they can do what they are doing
or even lets say a nazi group coming and speaking(by the way i will try my best to shut theme down) but it is abosolutly beutiful that they can


or when people set up a table next to army recruting tables and desecrate the american army and protest it this is beutiful they have the right to do it.

dont be mad if these guys started acting retarted and started to use physical force you get punished concecuence you get shut down but look they drew attention to their cause so maybe it all works out
maybe UCI is just a bad case but not other places

right now the political correct thing to do is to not be with mainstream
to be agianst it to be an arrogant librael

[golgol85]

again i dont belive that you only care about things becuase they are related to iranian
i think you for some reason want to prove it to yourself

second bare in mined still today american acadamic instututions are still among the best in the world
they still produce some of the most revolutionary, diverse, idiologies.
also again belive it or not their is more freedom in america than anywere else when it come to highereducation.
theri are some flaws for example to many way to many libreal personal and very few repersantation of concervative thoghts.

also i take offence to the fact that you are singleing out jewsih group infact i take huge offence..

no one should expect to easily penerate mainstream opinion
it takes a fight.




do you you know howmany thousends of people every year from all around the world come here to be educated so they can take advantage of the free and open eduaction system.

among the 20 top school in the world 15 are american
among the top 5 3 are american

america still produces the brighetes most inovative minds
were else can you write and publish thigs that offend so many people and yet you are encoraged to do it

the larouch people fpr example i think they are all brainwashed and insane but i marvel at the fact that they can do what they are doing
or even lets say a nazi group coming and speaking(by the way i will try my best to shut theme down) but it is abosolutly beutiful that they can


or when people set up a table next to army recruting tables and desecrate the american army and protest it this is beutiful they have the right to do it.

dont be mad if these guys started acting retarted and started to use physical force you get punished concecuence you get shut down but look they drew attention to their cause so maybe it all works out
maybe UCI is just a bad case but not other places

right now the political correct thing to do is to not be with mainstream
to be agianst it to be an arrogant librael

Mike, hypertension gereftam az bas harfat feshar khoonam ro bala payeen mikoneh. First off, you dont even know me well enough to make a judgement about my character when you say I am trying to prove myself. I dont need to prove myself to anyone. If i choose to say something, i really mean it. I posted this thread before you even asked if i would feel the same if something different happened to a non-iranian, and here we see non iranians, non muslims at that too. Aval no one really took interest in the topic, so sorry dont expect me to sit and argue with myself since i know how i feel and how i react to certain things. When one posts a thread, they like to have other opinions come in to expand the discussion. So if you are going to say i didnt say how i felt initially when i posted this thread, its because i wanted to give others a fair chance at reading and analyzing what happened without looking at my particular ideologies (what you will call biases) and make their own judegement.

I never said american institutions were bad, but you need to look at what is happening. Just because they are better than most out there doesnt mean we close our eyes at the bad things that happen on the better campuses in the world. If we are to set an example for places like iran, we better be example worthy. You are too funny, just because you are conservative doesnt mean we need more people with your ideologies and beliefs running around. Baz bahse mano avaz kardi, its nice to have a balance between the two, but if you have a lot of liberal people, its a heck of a lot better than having a lot of conservative people because at least the liberals are openminded.

I am not singling out a jewish group, i am explaining what happened as it happened. the fact that a jewish group was involved in something like this doesnt surprize me though as a student at UCI. You are too closed minded. You want to see the good the jewish community does without looking at the bad. NEWFLASH: good and bad happen, there are good jewish people and bad jewish people, those with good and beneficial ideologies and those with lousy ideologies. Ayn Rand and Yaron Brook both have lousy ideologies and trust me had i known he was coming i would have gone to his speech and i would have definately asked some questions at the end.

i love how your ideas come out at the end. Mike, do not insult liberals just because you arent one. You make it seem like being liberal is a fad, its cool so people are doing it to be cool. You belittle the cause of La Roche. You are too biased and this takes away from your arguement. You come in, in any situation, and if there is anything jewish about it, you defend it, eyes closed. khodet migi its cool for a group to set up an anti army booth next to the army booth, so why is it not okay for a man who is proposing something similar to the halocast for the iraqi people to be questioned? you say the holocast is bad, i say yes, innocent people were killed and that is sad and bad. Dont tell me that just because jewish people were killed they have a god given right to come and preach the morality of it being okay to go and kill others to teach them a lesson. that in my eye is what hitler did. he made the jewish look subhuman, and in his eyes killing someone subhuman was not a big deal. Before you have a heartattack, i say and will repeat to say this type of thinking is wrong. But if its wrong for hitler, then its wrong for yaron brook. the fact that his people were killed should make him more cautious rather than trigger happy.

[mike435]

gogol bejoone khodam agar mitonestam mioomadam oonja but face to face harf misadam

i didnt know you wrote that before
i thoght you had wrote that after and i was like why is she saying it again

than i said its beutifule that their is the oppertunity for people to protest each other

and somthing like the holocust i get offended whrn people question becuase it either happend or didnt their is well enoght evidance for it so wen people question it i will try to protest theme unless it would cuse to much harm than i would just keep quiet

than as for librals
yea i do belive most students do it as a fad. Most students at the schools dont even know what they are realy defending. they have this romantic idiology of being a hero if they adopt librael view points.

also i do think it is redicilous that only 1in maybe 20 or 30 professors are librals their is no dievercity in that and their is no repersantation of the other side.

i somtimes feel that people just recycle the same thing over and over again somtimes it is so bad it feels like a leftwing rush limbagh on repeat.

i think libraels are arrogant many of theme i get the feeling that they allways want to apease.
somtimes it think they think they are sitting on clouds looking at the world.
the underestimate to many people and over estimate so many more.

and another thing i absolutly hate about libreals is that they just bitch and nag never porpose a solution
just cartiuqe and cartiuqe

[golgol85]

mike, bejoone khodam agar doostpesaram boodi ta hala khafat kardeh boodam (in a loving way though)

bebin, mike you jump to conclusions way too fast and that causes you to have to recant some of the points you make. You underestimate me, you think i am here to put on a show. but let me tell you that, first off, as you can tell, we dont have an audience. the only people who care about this particular issue would be you, ramin, and me. So with that said, there really isnt anyone to put on a show for. If i come here and share how i feel with you, its not that i am trying to impose my ideas or beliefs on you. Even if i wanted to, which i dont, you are too stubborn to even listen, let alone change how you feel. The world is a better place for all the diversity, be it liberal, be it conservative. I think its nice to listen to both sides objectively, and then try to look at the good each side has to offer, put all the good from both sides together and get a realistic look at what can accomplished.

history repeats itself, just as people repeat their ideologies. Look at your own posts, you have a common theme: defending all that is jewish. Now, if i or anyone else came to look at your posts, we would think they are redundant, but to you, its how you feel. I am saying this not to upset you, but so you know that when someone shares their beliefs, it may seem redundant to me or you, but to the person, its how they feel.