Understanding the Israeli argument: an introduction

[zubin]

Though I can't speak for Israelis, I can say as an objective observer that there are some arguments for Israel that are much stronger than others, and this may be enough to move towards a better understanding of Israel.

A strong argument for Israel is NOT the holocaust. What is truly psychologically compelling is the notion that one deserves a place to call home.

Now I'm not advocating one way or another, but this argument must be made clear by Israelis and be understood by cultural opposition for future harmony. Israelis should not expect non-Jews to understand the issue of a homeland as well as they do, and so much communicate the issue clearly.

The question that must be asked is this: Is there any forceful argument in opposition to the right to a homeland for Jews?

[mike435]

as "Zionist"(since definition different according to different people) I definitely doubt that anyone can understand why Jews like Israel atleast in a logical way

I stumbled on this conclusion when I tried to peruse an understanding of why non Jews love palatine (as in a muslim ruled state) so much,

I spoke to a classmate who her parents were Palestinian refugees living in Jordan and she herself was born in Jordan but considered herself palastinian even though she went to school there, her friends were Jordanian, and she now studies in the states.

I asked her why do you want to go back palastine so much
the culture isn’t different
the land isn’t different
the language is different
nothing is different than that Jordan and plus according to yourself you are already aver integrated well into Jordanian society

her response was that she will not only return home one day (palatine) but she will die there

you see the conclusion for me was that this person has illogical love for the land (according to my understanding of logic of what gives me a right to occupy a land and call it home)

you see I answered all those question to the contrary, and even through in the argument that Israel is also the tool for the internation jewsih community for “never again”(holocaust) and she still came away saying she belived in a one state solution and that the jewish state had no business

look what I am saying is that what ever type of logic you use it will never make sence I think it is more of a love than logic,
it is like when you meet a girl your logical approach should be not to be with her( considering germs, energy, resources, commitment, taking away from your own life), yet every part of your body wants to be with her.

So combine the jews and both there love and logic for the land how do you separate it do you see what I am saying

also keep in mined that my classmate was only an example but was extreme enough to for me to use it as an example and offcourse there are other logical argument of why non jews have a right to the land but the importnt thing that i came away with was that i truely understood and respected her desire to the land even though ilogical according to mt preception, if i can see with out logic that she has a right to the land it menas that there is more t that just a logical argumant. somthing that i am sure both parties have to your relative idea of a logical arrgumant.

[zubin]

do you have an answer to the question?

[mike435]

do you have an answer to the question?

I really dont know
if there are argumants against ussualy they are banckruped anyways

i guess one argument against the jewish state is that

it intrudes an all islamic all arab region by being drasticly diffent and unporportionaly powerfull
but even that is a weak argumant becuse israel has no sphere of influence wether finincialy or politicly in the region

why dont you begin

[zubin]

the argument is against all nation states. all boundaries are fictional, artificial and arbitrary concepts which eventually must fall. it is only a question of when and how.

[mike435]

the argument is against all nation states. all boundaries are fictional, artificial and arbitrary concepts which eventually must fall. it is only a question of when and how.

that is a romantic idea

[ghalibaf]

i have taken part on quds day with the netuari karta, and the rabbis explain that the jews are not allowed to have their own state. i rather believe them than the zionists..
if israel was a legal state and didnt comit such atrocities against the palestinians then it would have at least abit more respect globally than what it is getting now.

[zubin]

that is a romantic idea

mike do you have anything other that snide comments to say to my comments, ever? you clearly don't understand what I'm saying so I don't think you are warranted to call it names. are you ready to say why its romantic and examine the validity of the label?

this is turning into a discussion about your manners. why don't we discuss the topic instead? so why is it so romantic in your opinion?

[mike435]

..... why is it so romantic in your opinion?

well people are diffrent people dont get along
for socioty to function there must be some kined of a unity
to some extent democrcys has it unity in divercity, islamic countries have theme in relligion, jews have theme in religion, culture, heritage, ethnicity, and mutual experiance.

these boundries, wich you are righ, are fictional and it is these that to some extent in my opinion keep people from constantly fighting

look the good thing about these fictional boundries is that it artificialy controles the spread of cultures so the weaker culture can also live say
in the middle east look if there was no boundry for the persian people who is to say that russians werent going to occupy it or arabs.

the only way these boundries will fall is if people start being the same,
but that wont ever happan becuase we have the freedom of choice.

also you yourself many times hint that you think democrocy is a failiure and a bounderless world wil require some kined of a democracy were everyone eill have a say

and regarding my comment earlier i did not think you cared becuase you ussualy ignore my what i say anwyas except recently

[mike435]

i have taken part on quds day with the netuari karta, and the rabbis explain that the jews are not allowed to have their own state. i rather believe them than the zionists..
if israel was a legal state and didnt comit such atrocities against the palestinians then it would have at least abit more respect globally than what it is getting now.

so do you also have this low amount of respect for
the germans, the sudanies, the arabs, amaricans and almost everyone else in the world

based on your argumant i shoul have litle respect for the muslim countires like pakistan were with atrocity after atrocity they created pakistan

and in case of israel read your histry every war and act of aggrection it was involved with it was not the aggresor

another thing what makes a state leagle
how is israel illigael

[zubin]

that's my whole point mike. you have the tendency to be rude. you did not understand what I said, yet you labeled it. I'm not saying there are no benefits to the current borders. you misunderstood. I'm saying that it is inevitable that the more justice is achieved through these borders, the less useful they become. they achieve justice, but as that justice is achieved, the borders have fulfilled their role. so gradually they weaken and weaken, though they maintain some minimum useful role. but eventually they become unnecessary. my point is that, since we can see the logic of this, it would be better to solve our problems faster, achieve justice faster ,and get rid of these borders as fast as possible. that would satisfy everyone.

well people are diffrent people dont get along
for socioty to function there must be some kined of a unity
to some extent democrcys has it unity in divercity, islamic countries have theme in relligion, jews have theme in religion, culture, heritage, ethnicity, and mutual experiance.

these boundries, wich you are righ, are fictional and it is these that to some extent in my opinion keep people from constantly fighting

look the good thing about these fictional boundries is that it artificialy controles the spread of cultures so the weaker culture can also live say
in the middle east look if there was no boundry for the persian people who is to say that russians werent going to occupy it or arabs.

the only way these boundries will fall is if people start being the same,
but that wont ever happan becuase we have the freedom of choice.

also you yourself many times hint that you think democrocy is a failiure and a bounderless world wil require some kined of a democracy were everyone eill have a say

and regarding my comment earlier i did not think you cared becuase you ussualy ignore my what i say anwyas except recently

[mike435]

that's my whole point mike. you have the tendency to be rude. you did not understand what I said, yet you labeled it. I'm not saying there are no benefits to the current borders. you misunderstood. I'm saying that it is inevitable that the more justice is achieved through these borders, the less useful they become. they achieve justice, but as that justice is achieved, the borders have fulfilled their role. so gradually they weaken and weaken, though they maintain some minimum useful role. but eventually they become unnecessary. my point is that, since we can see the logic of this, it would be better to solve our problems faster, achieve justice faster ,and get rid of these borders as fast as possible. that would satisfy everyone.

but ramin everyone sees justice in a diffrent way
who is to say what brand of justice is beter than the other
the only way you are going to achive a universal justice is if everyone sits down and talkes and than they will creat somthig that is neither a or b, but a, c and that would be a "better justic" and it would only be better becuase it is not the ones that faild

this is why i am so pesemestic and call it a romantic idea becuase i personaly think it will only happen in a fairy tale
how are you ever going to get people talking
some dont want to talke other are not even capable of it yet becuase lack of education and more importantly many groups ofpeople have theri own brand of justice that they like

[mike435]

but ramin everyone sees justice in a diffrent way
who is to say what brand of justice is beter than the other
the only way you are going to achive a universal justice is if everyone sits down and talkes and than they will creat somthig that is neither a or b, but a, c and that would be a "better justic" and it would only be better becuase it is not the ones that faild

this is why i am so pesemestic and call it a romantic idea becuase i personaly think it will only happen in a fairy tale
how are you ever going to get people talking
some dont want to talke other are not even capable of it yet becuase lack of education and more importantly many groups ofpeople have theri own brand of justice that they like

and oyu know if we get rit of the physical bowndires i think will have other boubdries ha wil try to achive the same thing

[ghalibaf]

so do you also have this low amount of respect for
the germans, the sudanies, the arabs, amaricans and almost everyone else in the world

based on your argumant i shoul have litle respect for the muslim countires like pakistan were with atrocity after atrocity they created pakistan

and in case of israel read your histry every war and act of aggrection it was involved with it was not the aggresor

another thing what makes a state leagle
how is israel illigael

what do those countries have to do with anything? our discussion is israel.
its not a matter of faith you have to realise that, zionism is a what has ruined judaisms image when the two are not even related. i respect the jewish faith just so you know.

now my stance against israel, lets not forget there was no such thing as the state of israel until 40-50 years ago, with the help of the british the israelis stripped the palestinians from their land by force, you may argue that those lands were purchased, but not all of them. Then ILLIGALLY they declared their own state in palestine, emediatly being funded by the usa with arms and financial aid they started to spread force millions of innocent people from their lands. do you expect surrounding countries to stand there and not make a move while thier allie is being destroyed?. Lucky for israel the arab states are worthless in a war.
Years have passed and the israelis are still demolishing and murdering innocent palestinians, not to mention their illegal nuclear programm which is a threat to regions stability, and on top of that the trillions of dollars the usa is just giving them in aid so the IDF can use them against innocent civilians.
The fact is that no superpower has ever remained in power, and as soon as the USA's power falls then will israel lose its war against the palestinians.

hating israel has nothing to do with faith, but the zionist ideoligies, i have jewish freinds that always state they are against israel.

[mike435]

what do those countries have to do with anything? our discussion is israel.
its not a matter of faith you have to realise that, zionism is a what has ruined judaisms image when the two are not even related. i respect the jewish faith just so you know.

now my stance against israel, lets not forget there was no such thing as the state of israel until 40-50 years ago, with the help of the british the israelis stripped the palestinians from their land by force, you may argue that those lands were purchased, but not all of them. Then ILLIGALLY they declared their own state in palestine, emediatly being funded by the usa with arms and financial aid they started to spread force millions of innocent people from their lands. do you expect surrounding countries to stand there and not make a move while thier allie is being destroyed?. Lucky for israel the arab states are worthless in a war.
Years have passed and the israelis are still demolishing and murdering innocent palestinians, not to mention their illegal nuclear programm which is a threat to regions stability, and on top of that the trillions of dollars the usa is just giving them in aid so the IDF can use them against innocent civilians.
The fact is that no superpower has ever remained in power, and as soon as the USA's power falls then will israel lose its war against the palestinians.

hating israel has nothing to do with faith, but the zionist ideoligies, i have jewish freinds that always state they are against israel.

we were talking about argumants against the jewish state
you said you have litle respect for israel based on your argumant
i am saying is that your argumant is flawed becuase it is true about everyother nation except maybe gandi
you just cant only aplly these argumants against israel
anyways i really dont have hosele to argue with you the point of this thread was argumants against the state of israel that is better than other argumants
so i think we should propose another argumant