Question about Gender and Islam

[zubin]

Hi Everyone,

I was interested in everyone's knowledge and view on the relationship between Islamic interpretation and the female gender, especially gender differences. I always hear that women are considered "fundamentally different" from men in Islam, even though they are "stated as equal". Especially, I hear that women are considered to be "less capable of controlling their emotions and so less valuable for certain decision-making".

I would like to hear from someone who knows or has an opinion on this issure about whether Islamic interpretation says this in a very clear way or if there are alternative interpretations. This is a question related to whether the Islam in Iran right now (or Islam in general) can be reformed into a more human rights version.

A note to be polite and respectful so we can actually engage in honest discussion on a potentially controversial issue.

I also put an article on a trustworthy psychology experiment that seems related to this issue.

Have a good time,

Thanks

[zubin]

Social Production of Fundamental Gender Differences in Math

npinol@aaas.org or scipak@aaas.org.

[mike435]

Hi Everyone,

I was interested in everyone's knowledge and view on the relationship between Islamic interpretation and the female gender, especially gender differences. I always hear that women are considered "fundamentally different" from men in Islam, even though they are "stated as equal". Especially, I hear that women are considered to be "less capable of controlling their emotions and so less valuable for certain decision-making".

I would like to hear from someone who knows or has an opinion on this issure about whether Islamic interpretation says this in a very clear way or if there are alternative interpretations. This is a question related to whether the Islam in Iran right now (or Islam in general) can be reformed into a more human rights version.

A note to be polite and respectful so we can actually engage in honest discussion on a potentially controversial issue.

I also put an article on a trustworthy psychology experiment that seems related to this issue.

Have a good time,

Thanks

very intrested to know
also diffrent being unequal isnt bad by itsel it is only when the alternative is lesser
i personaly dont think men and woman are equal insted i think they are diffrent in every way shape and form
and from some college level antropology i have confidence in belife

[zubin]

very intrested to know
also diffrent being unequal isnt bad by itsel it is only when the alternative is lesser
i personaly dont think men and woman are equal insted i think they are diffrent in every way shape and form
and from some college level antropology i have confidence in belife

Actually anthropology says that women and men are equal in psychology and abilities/talents because many cultures are "matriarchies", i.e. women are the rulers/decision-makers, exactly the same as men are in other cultures. If women were so different they wouldn't do the exact same things as men if it was socially accepted.

An psychology clearly shows that differences between men and women are small depending on what type of roles are thought of as acceptable in a particular culture (i.e. the environment/society/culture that the man and women are in largely produces differences). For example, as you can see here, women suddenly became much better at math when they were told they can do so.

Anyway, this was a question about Islam's interpretation of gender difference and how clearly Islam takes one or another view on this issue.

[mike435]

Actually anthropology says that women and men are equal in psychology and abilities/talents because many cultures are "matriarchies", i.e. women are the rulers/decision-makers, exactly the same as men are in other cultures. If women were so different they wouldn't do the exact same things as men if it was socially accepted.

An psychology clearly shows that differences between men and women are small depending on what type of roles are thought of as acceptable in a particular culture (i.e. the environment/society/culture that the man and women are in largely produces differences). For example, as you can see here, women suddenly became much better at math when they were told they can do so.

Anyway, this was a question about Islam's interpretation of gender difference and how clearly Islam takes one or another view on this issue.

your right lets talk about this somwear else i dono were ill prvat message you untill we fined a place for it

[zubin]

I put a post on that subject in the general discussion, called "Social production of fundamental gender differences...."

[bism87]

Hi Everyone,

I was interested in everyone's knowledge and view on the relationship between Islamic interpretation and the female gender, especially gender differences. I always hear that women are considered "fundamentally different" from men in Islam, even though they are "stated as equal". Especially, I hear that women are considered to be "less capable of controlling their emotions and so less valuable for certain decision-making".

I would like to hear from someone who knows or has an opinion on this issure about whether Islamic interpretation says this in a very clear way or if there are alternative interpretations. This is a question related to whether the Islam in Iran right now (or Islam in general) can be reformed into a more human rights version.

A note to be polite and respectful so we can actually engage in honest discussion on a potentially controversial issue.

I also put an article on a trustworthy psychology experiment that seems related to this issue.

Have a good time,

Thanks

That is right, in Islam women and men are of equal rank and stature in the eyes of God, but they have different responsibilities and roles on Earth (material responsibilities, not spiritual responsibilities like the Responsibility of Tawhid, etc.).

This difference is not a negative one, though, and Islam provides the definition of human rights and equality of humanity when applied independent of corrupting cultural forces and ill-intended governmental regulations.

I have heard the "less capable of controlling emotions" too, and it has much recent scientific proof behind it, but who is to say such a difference is bad? The quality may be detruous for some things, beneficial for others, and yet neutral for even more. But that is a very minor aspect of the difference, and these differences (especially when corrupted by cultural effects) are widely used in anti-Islamic pieces to try and devalue Islam. The major differences in role, though, provide the majority of the backdrop and reasoning for Islamic family law, Islamic inheritance rules and other Islamic rules that have different effects depending on the gender.

Hope this helps, let me know if I can clarify anything further or give you more examples.

P.S. Don't look at Islam in the world today (especially in Iran) to gain an understanding of what it's really supposed to be. There may be aspects of it that conform to the Islamic reality, but many things don't, and unfortunately these are labelled as "Islam" as well. To tell the difference, I would advise sticking to scholarly work and leaving politics and culture out of the equation.

[zubin]

I have heard the "less capable of controlling emotions" too, and it has much recent scientific proof behind it

You mean scientific evidence for the lack of difference, right?

And yes, could you explain more on the different responsibilities and roles of genders in the eyes of Islam? What is something a women is better or worse at than a man in the eyes of Islam?

[bism87]

You mean scientific evidence for the lack of difference, right?

And yes, could you explain more on the different responsibilities and roles of genders in the eyes of Islam? What is something a women is better or worse at than a man in the eyes of Islam?

No, I have read quite a few scientific pieces that clearly show that although the brain structure between a man and a woman is the same, the response to certain forms of stimuli are different. That is the essence of what the Qur'an gets at.

I don't fully understand your second question. The question has an inherent bias: "than a man" implies that the standard is the man, when in Islam there is no such thing. You can't compare the material responsibilities and roles of a man and woman because they are incomparable, and no one can say which is better. NEITHER are better, they are equal, just different.

Again, in today's world of practice, men and women are not equal because culture has corrupted religion (look at Saudi, at Iran, at India). But the original Message spreads the aforementioned principles.

[zubin]

Thank you in general for your reply. My question is restated more clearly below.

No, I have read quite a few scientific pieces that clearly show that although the brain structure between a man and a woman is the same, the response to certain forms of stimuli are different. That is the essence of what the Qur'an gets at.

That's not scientific evidence for differences. A different reaction may be due to upbringing. If the male was brought up as the women he would show the same reactions as the women did. This doesn't mean that men and women should be brought up the same way, but it shows that women and men do not "scientifically" have differences in psychology and emotion.

I don't fully understand your second question. The question has an inherent bias: "than a man" implies that the standard is the man, when in Islam there is no such thing. You can't compare the material responsibilities and roles of a man and woman because they are incomparable, and no one can say which is better. NEITHER are better, they are equal, just different.

Again, in today's world of practice, men and women are not equal because culture has corrupted religion (look at Saudi, at Iran, at India). But the original Message spreads the aforementioned principles.

The reason I opened this thread was to get some answers. You very clearly stated that women are better at some material things and men at others in Islam's eyes:

That is right, in Islam women and men are of equal rank and stature in the eyes of God, but they have different responsibilities and roles on Earth (material responsibilities, not spiritual responsibilities like the Responsibility of Tawhid, etc.).

I'm not giving you a biased question. I'm saying please provide an example of something men are better at than women and vice versa. To avoid confusion, this is the same question as:

What, in the eyes of Islam, can be said to be the "different responsibilities" between a man and a woman and why?

I ask this because, for instance, a different responsibility can be as different as saying men are leaders while women are housemaids, or that women and men are both leaders, but they are leaders in a different way. There's a big difference between these two, and in general I'm interested in the precise Islamic position and not something vague that is open to misinterpretation. For this reason if you could provide a more specific response yek donya mamnoon meesham. If not, then thanks for the reply anyway!

[bism87]

it shows that women and men do not "scientifically" have differences in psychology and emotion.

The reason I opened this thread was to get some answers. You very clearly stated that women are better at some material things and men at others in Islam's eyes:

I clearly say in the words you quoted that there is a difference. But I never mention that one is better or not, and in fact I say the opposite:

"NEITHER are better, they are equal, just different."

I'm not giving you a biased question. I'm saying please provide an example of something men are better at than women and vice versa. To avoid confusion, this is the same question as:

What, in the eyes of Islam, can be said to be the "different responsibilities" between a man and a woman and why?

These are entirely different questions. The first is theologically incorrect in its essence (because nothing is better or worse, it's just different) whereas the second is theologically answerable. I hope you see the difference, let me know if I can try to clarify it further. My answer below is to the 2nd question.

I ask this because, for instance, a different responsibility can be as different as saying men are leaders while women are housemaids, or that women and men are both leaders, but they are leaders in a different way. There's a big difference between these two, and in general I'm interested in the precise Islamic position and not something vague that is open to misinterpretation.

in court cases of a financial basisspirit

[zubin]

A few quick points. First, just because something can't be tested doesn't mean it isn't true. Second, anthropology is a natural experiment. The same exact roles that men have in some cultures women have in different cultures. Third, a good understanding of psychology and neuroscience might be enough for understanding gender differences without the need for experimentation. Such an understanding points to a lack of differences in psychology, but to differences in roles due to reproductive differences, which then causes different reactions and behavior.

Regardless, today's scientific world acknowledges a difference and supports the Qur'anic position.

I can definately see a lot of congruence between Islam and psychology. However, this is vague as different interpretations on gender differences and psychology are available. I detect some friction between the two, and essentially, with this thread, am trying to test the theory that the friction is due to currupting factors and not the essential doctrine. In my interpretation of Islam, there is little friction if any. But I suspect that my interpretation is different from many Muslims and Islamic academics. Particularly, I am confused on the formal position on change in Islam (more below), which my interpretation might be in conflict with.

I hope to get closer to your view of Islam's true doctrine so I can assess how if any friction does exist.

I clearly say in the words you quoted that there is a difference. But I never mention that one is better or not, and in fact I say the opposite:

"NEITHER are better, they are equal, just different."


These are entirely different questions. The first is theologically incorrect in its essence (because nothing is better or worse, it's just different) whereas the second is theologically answerable. I hope you see the difference, let me know if I can try to clarify it further.

Words have different meanings in different contexts. The word "better" can be used in the functional sense and not the fundamental sense. I'm reading your comments to be in the functional sense and not the fundamental sense, as seen in the phrase "better at":

I'm saying please provide an example of something men are better at than women and vice versa.

And this functional sense is exactly what you are saying:

there is a generally greater tendency of care and compassion and familial sacrifice in the female

So we're clear on the question, and you clearly prefer this wording:

What, in the eyes of Islam, can be said to be the "different responsibilities" between a man and a woman and why?

Your response:

It seems to me that through exceptional cases and your wording such as "greater tendency" and so forth shows that the different roles between men and women are not absolute, they overlap and vary according to historical context, cultural norms, upbringing etc.

Hope this helps, let me know if I can further help in any way.

Yes, it helped a lot. I particularly liked your example about financial law and how Islamic law allows for changing the law if it does not apply. Two general questions arise for me, though I will use this example only for illustration:

1. How flexible is Islamic law in acknowledging that women can handle financial issues? Does Islamic law foresee and conceive of the possibility, through some sort of explicit or flexible structure, that women can and might take on financial responsibilies? This question applies to other areas where women today are showing to be as good or even better than men, though not usually thought of as such, such as politics and human rights. Does Islam allow for roles to shift along with the times in some controlled manner, like the example you provided on the prospect of financial law in Iran being reconsidered?

2. How can Islam's flexibility be defined or described in practice? What are the mechanisms or norms that allows shifting of roles depending on context and circumstances?

I'll let you know if I have any questions, not assuming that you can answer them all. But it was definately a service to provide a response to this topic. I realize they aren't easy questions but my perspective has greatly increased on the topic. Your experiences/opinions/knowledge are highly appreciated on this important topic.

[bism87]

If you don't mind, I'll leave the Islam vs. psychology debate to later this week (or maybe leave it completely) because I must admit I have to do some more research in the area and I thank you for inspiring me to further my search for Truth.

Additionally, thanks for being so respectful, normally when Islam is brought up there are a lot of insults and swearing due to a certain revolution in a certain Middle Eastern country during a certain year in the late 70s.

It seems to me that through exceptional cases and your wording such as "greater tendency" and so forth shows that the different roles between men and women are not absolute, they overlap and vary according to historical context, cultural norms, upbringing etc.

There is that famous saying "exceptions prove generalities", in essence if something is an "exception", it must mean that a larger idea (a generality) applies. I would strongly reckon that those roles are not absolute, and any specific situation can differ. But a "normal" husband-wife combo with kids would seem to be a general case which would tend to go in the direction described with differing material responsibilities.

1. How flexible is Islamic law in acknowledging that women can handle financial issues? Does Islamic law foresee and conceive of the possibility, through some sort of explicit or flexible structure, that women can and might take on financial responsibilies? This question applies to other areas where women today are showing to be as good or even better than men, though not usually thought of as such, such as politics and human rights. Does Islam allow for roles to shift along with the times in some controlled manner, like the example you provided on the prospect of financial law in Iran being reconsidered?

You must excuse me, I am too uncertain to really be able to give you an answer. My Islamic studies so far have really dealt with theological matters and my law background (whether sharia or fiqh matters) is pretty weak. So the following is just me thinking out loud, but I do not know if it's correct or not:

I see Islam as a religion of thought and of progress. Unfortunately, in today's world, there are many people who warp and corrupt the message for their own personal benefit, and we get the "Islam" that we have today, where women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi and where women were beaten like it was nothing under the Taliban (I wish it was just that, the condition of women in "Islamic" countries is appallingly unIslamic).

Keep in mind: the Qur'an deals with law only very minimally: it's more of a guide on ethical and moral values and the idea of social justice (along with the basic tenets of Islam on a theological level = One God, etc etc). A lot of law comes from Hadith (Sunnah) which is the supposed actions and sayings of the Prophet [saas] and either his companions (Sunni) or his family (Shi'a). The problem with this latter is you get unreliable hadith, and also misinterpreted hadith, just as the "death by stoning for adultery" hadith which is one of the biggest misunderstandings/mistakes of all law (all-time), but which is accepted today (more on this if you would like).

Back to your question:
However, I would have a problem with men replacing womens' roles and women replacing men. It's not that I'm uncomfortable with the idea personally, it's just that I don't think that's what our roles are on Earth. For every religious person, there needs to be a sort of recognizance that someone (God) knows more about the human condition than humans, and that the rules are set and the generalities are favored for a certain reason (one that may even seem alien to us). Of course, again, I think there is vast room for exceptions, but if the exceptions become the generality, I think there's a problem. That is to say, in this case, a human society would be worse off with all the women working and the men raising the children than vice versa.

2. How can Islam's flexibility be defined or described in practice? What are the mechanisms or norms that allows shifting of roles depending on context and circumstances?

"Bad" is pretty much the appropriate word. Countries that call themselves Islamic are some of the biggest violators in terms of the spirit of the Qur'anic message of equality of humanity. A woman in an Islamic country (depends on which country, but still) has a very low chance of being able to shift the role, simply because they are fighting against a self-proclaimed Islamic system. A fight against an "Islamic" system could be crushed by falsely terming it a fight against Islam. There's no way to stand up to a religious-based court and say "you're wrong on this religious matter" or "this is an exception" or any other thing. That's the problem with mixing religion and politics.

I'll let you know if I have any questions, not assuming that you can answer them all. But it was definately a service to provide a response to this topic. I realize they aren't easy questions but my perspective has greatly increased on the topic. Your experiences/opinions/knowledge are highly appreciated on this important topic.

I thank you for helping me increase my own awareness and question my own beliefs, as it will help me attain a deeper understanding of myself and help me find or continue on the path of God.

[bism87]

By the way, please don't only take my word. I know people who would defend today's application of sharia to the last breath, so be sure to get other perspectives as well.

Joubin, I found these two book descriptions online that I have NOT read, but which might be appealing to you. I don't know how good they are or how true they are, but the subjects seem right on this discussion:

Etin Anwar

Gender and self in Islam

Muslim interpretations of the Qur'an and Hadith on gender issues have produced authoritative legitimacy that often contains contradictory claims. Etin Anwar argues that the construction of gender hierarchy reduces the autonomous self into a gendered body that is embedded with socially and culturally accepted behaviours, attitudes and beliefs.

This book uses philosophical analysis to discuss the root of the existing discourse of the hierarchical principle of gender and examines the extent to which the process of human reproduction, especially the role of women in conception, contributes to anti-egalitarian theory of gender. Etin Anwar analyzes the theological, cultural, and political apparatus of the masculine conception of femininity and seeks to unfold the process of the alienation of the self from a woman's sense of individuality, agency, and autonomy. Finally the author seeks to restructure the contradictory claims of gender hierarchy and egalitarianism and elaborate an alternative set of interpretations that is friendly and inclusive of women.

This book will be of interest to students and researchers in the fields of Islamic studies, Southeast Asian studies, gender and sexuality, religion and philosophy.

edited by Hisham M. Ramadan

Understanding Islamic law : from classical to contemporary.

Contents: Islamic law : an overview of its origin and elements / Irshad Abdal-Haqq -- On Islamic punishment / Hisham M. Ramadan -- Humanitarian international law in Islam : a general outlook / Ahmed Zaki Yamanai -- Principles of Islamic contract law / Noor Mohammed -- Marriage, divorce, and inheritance in Islamic law / Mahmoud Hoballah -- Gender equality in Islamic family law : dispelling common misconceptions and misunderstandings / Hafiz Nazeem Goolam -- Islam as intellectual property : "my Lord! increase me in knowledge" / Ali Khan.

[zubin]

If you don't mind, I'll leave the Islam vs. psychology debate to later this week (or maybe leave it completely) because I must admit I have to do some more research in the area and I thank you for inspiring me to further my search for Truth.

Yes, well, it may depend on your beliefs how you interpret psychology research. My specialization is in the construction of a psychological framework that is scientific and does not have "confounds/alternative interpretations" and I can tell you that the truly scientific interpretation of psychology works well with Islam in my opinion, only that there may be steps along the way of this understanding that can be perceived to contradict Islam. I could provided references and resources if you were ever interested.

Additionally, thanks for being so respectful, normally when Islam is brought up there are a lot of insults and swearing due to a certain revolution in a certain Middle Eastern country during a certain year in the late 70s.

Thank you for your willingness to discuss and provide information on such a sensitive topic.

However, I would have a problem with men replacing womens' roles and women replacing men. It's not that I'm uncomfortable with the idea personally, it's just that I don't think that's what our roles are on Earth. For every religious person, there needs to be a sort of recognizance that someone (God) knows more about the human condition than humans, and that the rules are set and the generalities are favored for a certain reason (one that may even seem alien to us). Of course, again, I think there is vast room for exceptions, but if the exceptions become the generality, I think there's a problem. That is to say, in this case, a human society would be worse off with all the women working and the men raising the children than vice versa.

Yes, well, differences in roles between two partners, and so the essential doctrine, is indisputable because it is impossible for two people to have the exact same role. Two people will naturally take up roles that are more suited to them and a difference can be seen between men and women, particularly in relation to reproductive differences. I just don't think this difference is well defined at the moment and I find some definitions of difference between men and women too different to be acceptable. Some things like women can't make good or better decisions in given circumstances (as an essential fact) are highly disputable for me. My example was that one person can say men are leaders naturally and women are not leaders, or one can say that both are leaders but in a different way. I think the latter is supported by evidence and applies well in today's world.

"Bad" is pretty much the appropriate word. Countries that call themselves Islamic are some of the biggest violators in terms of the spirit of the Qur'anic message of equality of humanity. A woman in an Islamic country (depends on which country, but still) has a very low chance of being able to shift the role, simply because they are fighting against a self-proclaimed Islamic system. A fight against an "Islamic" system could be crushed by falsely terming it a fight against Islam. There's no way to stand up to a religious-based court and say "you're wrong on this religious matter" or "this is an exception" or any other thing. That's the problem with mixing religion and politics.

What's interesting for me is the mere possibility and flexibility that may exist in a certain interpretation of Islam. Material rules must follow spiritual rules and this may entail an inherent and appropriate flexibility depending on circumstances. If you find any sources of flexibility or inflexibility other than currupted politics let me know as that is more or less my endeavor. Thanks again.

I thank you for helping me increase my own awareness and question my own beliefs, as it will help me attain a deeper understanding of myself and help me find or continue on the path of God.

I guess honesty and respect are a potent combination!

By the way, please don't only take my word. I know people who would defend today's application of sharia to the last breath, so be sure to get other perspectives as well.

Joubin, I found these two book descriptions online that I have NOT read, but which might be appealing to you. I don't know how good they are or how true they are, but the subjects seem right on this discussion:

These resources seem uniquely on point and will inevitably be useful. I will try to investigate a little more though before I commit to them. Thank you, I am one step closer myself!