Terrorism of Zionism

[mike435]

ok ramin
so i can conclude from your arguments that you belive that while being objective both HAMAS and Israel are wrong and becuae of that they are not justified

so there must be things that you would consider good qualitys
what would these be for israel and hamas

what qualitys should israel poses to be respected

and epecialy hamas what wuality should hams poses unless you think hamas is a victom and they are saints

[zubin]

I think as soon as Israel puts double-standards away in their judgments and actions and equal validity is recognized by Israel, then negotiations can take place to discuss moral features of each side such as better education and a halt to violence.

As long as there's injustice in the peace process, there is no peace process. Moral issues are issues of the peace process.

[mike435]

lets say israel doesnt do that thene are you saying that the palastinians should or will be condemed for eternity?

what should the palastinians do then wait for a another party to decide their faith?

think about this

[zubin]

why would palestinians should or will be condemned for eternity? Can you explain?

I'm only saying that according to your arguments if Israel doesn't do that, the consequence is that Israel is being unjust, oppressive and employing double standards, as was the very first thesis I brought forth here.

[mike435]

I think as soon as Israel puts double-standards away in their judgments and actions and equal validity is recognized by Israel, then negotiations can take place to discuss moral features of each side such as better education and a halt to violence.

As long as there's injustice in the peace process, there is no peace process. Moral issues are issues of the peace process.

i was saying lets say what you are thinking is right and is true it would mean that all of peace is in israels hands and it sounds as if the palastinians have no say
and offcourse lets be realistic and consider that israel is the evil empire on the face of the earth going after poor hamas, so considering this poor hamas and the palastinians than have to wait for eternity for peace to come

my real question here is were is the responsibility on the palastinian side?
if it is poor hamas what should hamas do

if you say nothing it only means that their is thene no hope for the palastinians

[zubin]

you're asking me what I think if Israel continues the path of confrontation and injustice? Well first, that's not going to last forever. Second, what would happen is Israel would lose its reputation completely and would become much more weaker than if it acted justly.

Palestinians would have to suffer, but that would be made up for. What goes around comes around.

[zubin]

and I'm not saying that Israel is the evil country of the world and 'poor old Hamas'. I have not said anything of the sort during this conversation. I in fact was open to listen and become convinced by your argument, only to be let down by contradiction after contradiction, and bias after bias. I'm actually saddened that you have made absolutely no case for Israel. I was hoping there was some rationality involved.

Perhaps you should control your biases and hate during a rational conversation?

[mike435]

and I'm not saying that Israel is the evil country of the world and 'poor old Hamas'. I have not said anything of the sort during this conversation. I in fact was open to listen and become convinced by your argument, only to be let down by contradiction after contradiction, and bias after bias. I'm actually saddened that you have made absolutely no case for Israel. I was hoping there was some rationality involved.

Perhaps you should control your biases and hate during a rational conversation?

pehaps

argumants for the way i look at hamas comes from this
their action going after woman and chilldren
their stated objectives on their websites
there choice of suicide bombing
and belive it or not the way they treat the palastinian people two
they have broght more harm to theme than good and the harm to the palastnians is an expense the israelis will incure.

anyways for you these are not rational observation and they are not objective observations

look i have never ever in mylife honest to G-d argued for so long with such intensity
ussualy in these conversation i give up my own position and adapt to the oposing view point because i have been convinced
i we have have talked for so long and i still belive in what i belive and still stand by it
it mean 1 their is some validity to it and the only reason we have not been affected is becuae i havnt or were not able to explain it

2 if you are right it means that maybe you havnt been able to convince me becuause your aruments wernt good enogh or maybe they were but i couldnt comprehend them

[mike435]

also i think i have a lot of respetct for you to
because i can also apreciate your say comtiment

maybe i am putting tomuch weight behined what you say

[mike435]

dear ramin

i have been thinking about hamas and the more i think about it the more i question your objectivity towardes them

its almost like debating a truth, hamas is a terorist orginization because of truths ,and if still you cant see why then you are in denail

they delibretly knowingly willingly intentionaly go after woman and chilldren to kill theme to take their life away just that alone makes theme a terrorist orginization.
why do you wanne be objective with theme why do you want to be objective with a lie.

you know, their are things that are truths, you can debate opinions but you can not debat facts

do you use objectivity and say that the insurgents in iraq they are also freedpm fighters and not terorist?

with your school of thoght than you should also let israeli terrorist off the hook

look i know you are educated and becuse you have rational you think you can or you think others can just talke throgh things that is true about the israelis but not HAMAS not a group that chooses violance and violance alone. i am not saying you should not use violance their are times you have to

ramin please please be objective investigate hamas and see that they are a terrorist group. i cant prove it to you because their is never really a proof for anything just a complication of evidance that add up to a position, and even thoe evidance all those wiegh diffrent

over here all i want you to understand is that hamas is a terrorist orginization irralavnt to others

do you agree with me that hamas is an evil terrrorist orginization?

[zubin]

why do you keep repeating the same flawed arguments. there is something called a counter-argument. I provided many of these and you simply did not respond. Please do not bring any more of your accusations or propaganda. I'm not interested in propaganda and arbitrary arguments. I provided counterarguments and you want me to repeat it over and over again. But you seem to not be aware that I am not your slave. I can not come here and keep repeating the same counter-arguments to someone who only understands propaganda. I'll repeat the counter-arguments for the last time. PLEASE only respond to counter-argument if you want to have a discussion with me, and not the same old arguments and propaganda that I have already resonded to. I'm not interested in propaganda, and I am not your slave so to keep repeating my counterarguments. If you are not interested in rational discussion, which means only, and I repeat only, responding to counter-arguments, then you are wasting my time with propaganda, and I am not interested.

1- The founders of Israel repeatedly targetted cilivians. According to your definition of terrorism based on the targetting of civilians , Palestinians should not recognize Israel and Hamas is justified.

2- Israel intentionally oppresses the Palestinians. Why shouldn't this be called terrorism as well?

3- You accept that Hamas does "noble" things for the Palestinians. Why should this not be incorporated into the definition of Hamas? How do you justify simplifying Hamas as a "terrorist organization" if you at the same time accept them as a "noble organization"? You are contradicting yourself here.

4- You say, "they delibretly knowingly willingly intentionaly go after woman and chilldren to kill theme to take their life away".

Are you saying that this is Hamas' mindset? If you are saying so, you are wrong. Their mindset is the administration of justice. They may be wrong, but that is their mindest, not how you phrase it.

5- You conclude by saying Hamas is an evil organization. What do you mean by evil organization? There can be different definitions. Do you mean they are evil without intending so, or that they are inherently evil? You are vague as always and you are only fooling yourself by not admitting your arguments were flawed and trying to say that my arguments were not convincing. I did not provide many arguments. I mainly analyzed your arguments which led to support for my arguments.

6- There is no need to use the word "terrorist". It is not an objective word. No one agrees on a definition, and is abusive. Being objective means describing the facts, and nothing extra. Say person X does Y, has the midset Z, and we can go from there. Don't start off a conversation with an undefined and unestablished word that adds an extra meaning. Stick with the facts, then we may find some extra meanings, or we may not, depending on what the facts look like.

7- Just because you have "confirmed" your original view in no way means your view makes a shred of sense. There is something called *confirmation bias* that many people engaged in a discussion that threatens their identity engage in. They slant the facts and avoid some facts in order to "confirm" their view because they are too lazy to re-examine their allegiences.

[donsaeid]

[donsaeid]

[donsaeid]

[donsaeid]

شوراي حقوق بشر خواستار توقف ساخت شهرك*هاي صهيونيست*نشين شد


شوراي حقوق بشر سازمان ملل با تصويب قطعنامه*اي از اسرائيل خواست ساخت شهرك*هاي صهيونيست*نشين را در سرزمين*هاي اشغالي فلسطين متوقف كند و به خلع سلاح شهرك*نشينان بپردازد.



به نقل از خبرگزاري فرانسه، شوراي حقوق بشر سازمان ملل امروز تقريبا به اجماع قطعنامه*اي را تصويب كرد كه در آن از اسرائيل خواسته شده ساخت شهرك*هاي صهيونيست*نشين را در سرزمين*هاي اشغالي كرانه باختري از جمله قدس شريف متوقف كند و به مصادره سلاح شهرك*نشينان بپردازد.
چهل*وپنج عضو از اعضاي شوراي حقوق بشر اين قطعنامه را تاييد كردند و تنها كانادا با آن مخالفت و كامرون از دادن راي خودداري كرد.
در اين قطعنامه كه كشورهاي اسلامي ارائه كرده بودند از اسرائيل خواسته شده هر چه سريعتر از سياست ساخت شهرك*هاي صهيونيست*نشين در سرزمين*هاي اشغالي از جمله قدس شريف و بلندي*هاي جولان سوريه دست بردارد.
اين قطعنامه همچنين از اسرائيل مي*خواهد در اولين گام هر چه سريعتر از توسعه شهرك*هاي صهيونيست*نشين و اسكان شهرك*نشينيان جديد در سرزمين*هاي اشغالي جلوگيري كند و به مصادره سلاح*هاي شهرك*نشينان صهيونيست* بپردازد و براي جلوگيري از جنايت و خشونت آنان عليه فلسطينيان مجازاتي وضع كند.