John Limbert
FA: How did you end up in Iran?
JL: First time I went to Iran in was 1962. At that time I was a university student. My father was assigned there with the old Asleh 4 (the planning organization) which was the ancestor of USAID. He and my mother lived in Tehran and I went to visit them in the summer time. I didn’t know much about the country but I spent a couple of month there, in Tehran, Shiraz, Isfahan, and was fascinated. I took courses at in Persian language at the old Iran-America society. The other coincidence at that time was that my mother, who was a social worker, was teaching at what was then The Tehran School of Social Work, which was run by Mrs. Setareh Farmanfarmaian(see photo). It later turned out on that one of her students was the sister of my future wife. At the time, I had no idea that I would be marrying her student’s sister!So I came back to the US and started taking courses at Harvard in Middle East history and culture. In those days, Sir Hamilton Gibb was the star there. I took Arabic language courses as well. I found it fascinating. When I finished my undergraduate work, I went into the Peace Corps. They usually ask you what your preference is; I said the Middle East, which in those days would have meant Iran, Cyprus, or Turkey.
I was part of the Peace Corps Iran in Group 4. We did our training in the summer of 1964 at the University of Michigan. Eden Nabi (who later became Professor Richard Frye’s wife) was in our group, but Iranians would not give her a visa. She was Assyrian, born in Iran. I went to Sanandaj, the capital of Kurdistan Iran, and started teaching English for two years. My wife’s father was a doctor in town. She had been teaching in Tehran but she was transferred back to her hometown. We ended up teaching in the same High School. English was required for the last 6 years; what was called Cycle one and Cycle two. She taught Physical Education. That is where we first met.
We were married in 1966, and in that same year we left Iran and came to the US. We lived in Cambridge. I was doing a Ph.D. in History of the Middle East, working with, among others, Richard Frye and Manouchehr Mohandessi. I also worked with the German Rumi scholar, Annemarie Schimmel. The scholar Wheeler Thackston was a then student and later taught Persian at Harvard. Although we lived in genteel poverty and at times Cambridge was cold and dark, life as a graduate student had its rewards. I remembered that I missed Iran terribly and wanted to go back. I finished my Ph.D. oral exams in the spring of 1968.
FA: Were your children were born in Iran and do they still speak Persian?
JL: My wife Parvaneh spoke Persian and both Kurdish and English and now we still speak mostly Persian together. The kids understand and speak both languages (Persian and English). Our daughter was born in 1969 in Tehran. She currently teaches anthropology at Queens College. Our son was also born in Shiraz in 1971.
FA: What drew you back to Iran and the Middle East?
JL: It’s a good question. It was the Middle East in general; not just the food, not just the scenery, but above all the people. Terry O’Donnell, who later became a friend, says: “Iranians are very much like us, only more so.” Friendships and bonds are much stronger; there is closeness and intimacy, good interaction between families, as exists in almost all Middle Eastern societies. Friendships are quiet powerful and intense. Once in a while I get a message from an old friend from 30 years ago. By contrast, the human dimension is very limited in our society; it is scattered, we are less connected to each other. In Iran, it is different. I think it was the Iranian people who drew me back, mainly.
FA: Why did you go to Shiraz?
JL: In 1968 we went to Iran, this time to Shiraz. I was doing research for my dissertation and was there at the invitation of the Asia Institute of Shiraz. Dr. Arthur Upham Pope was the head of the old Asia Institute under the umbrella of University of Shiraz. There was also Dr. Houshang Nahvandi and Dr Farhang Mehr, who were chancellors of the University. Life was not terribly expensive. Parvaneh taught in High school. She had studied Physical Education at Daneshsarayeh Ali, in Khiyaban (street) Roosevelt in Tehran. At the time there were not many women who had Bachelor degrees (they were few women who were “lisensieh” (with a B.A.).
After a few months, I started teaching at the University. It was the late 60’s. Between the two of us, we had a middle-class salary; we made about 4,000 Toman a month, so we had an okay life. We lived in Kucheh Dejban, Khiyabaneh Zand. At that time, to get a taxi you would pay 5 -10 rials. We lived comfortably and ended up staying there for 4 years. Life was too good but I was unable to finish Reconstruction of Shiraz in 14th century, a book on the times of Hafez.
I knew I had serious academic work ahead of me. Most of our friends were from the University circles such as Dr. Dehghan and Dr. Ghorban. Everyone knew him of course; in our neighborhood there were also many Bahai families. I had both Bahai and Muslim students. During Ramadan, there was lots of cooking. We also knew Dr. Tavallali and his wife among others.
I finished my Ph.D. in 1973. Dr. Esmail Ajami, who was a sociologist and Associate Dean of the Arts and Science Faculty, told me the University would pay my air fare back to Cambridge, and when I finished I could work as a permanent faculty member at Pahlavi University (formerly Shiraz U) and build up the history department. However, after I finished the Ph.D. I decided not to return to Shiraz. I told Shiraz University officials that I would repay the transportation cost. But they said it’s Ok. They were very decent people. When I finally finished with my Ph.D., I went to Professor Frye who was my advisor, and asked him about jobs prospects He laughed and said “There aren’t any and never will be.”
FA: What happened then?
JL: So I took the Foreign Service exam. I had a choice to join the Foreign Service or join the faculty at Shiraz as an assistant professor. In June 1973 I joined the Foreign Service. For 33 years, I was in the Foreign Service. I was assigned different posts in United Arab Emirates and other countries.
At that time I did not want to serve in Iran. It was the period of the Nixon- Kissinger doctrine. I did not like our policies there. Instead, I spent almost three years in the United Arab Emirates, 15 months in Tunisia studying Arabic, and 18 months in Saudi Arabia.
In early 1979, just before the downfall of the shah I volunteered to go to Tehran. It was in August 1979 when I joined the embassy in Tehran.
FA: What made you go there? Why did you make such a decision?
JL:Khariat!! (Stupidity), and it was also curiosity. Something had changed. We all thought, like you, that this was going to be big for Iran and for the US, and that it in a way it was a good thing, in a strange and friendly way.
The US and the Shah had been too close. What kept him in the throne was our support; he did what we asked him to do. Iran seemed to be an ally, but a little too much so. The country identified him with us and for this very reason people did not like this about the regime. There was discontent, in general people were not at ease about the system. Though, people were benefiting, doing well, but you could sense that something wasn’t right. It was sort of an open opposition. There were all kinds of fliers and leaflets distributed, there were demonstrations, and most were underground. There was corruption; especially involving the royal family and their entourage. The appointment of Richard Helms as American ambassador to Iran was a symbolic act, one which Iranians did not appreciate, since he had been the head of the CIA. Americans I talked to had good and bad feelings. It was also some sad periods. No one would dare say anything openly or spoke about US, Iran, the CIA. The Shah was more of a décor. He was a symbol of degradation. Few Americans understood this but when I talked to Iranians, they did understand. I saw occasional strikes at the universities. I remember that one of my Shiraz students from an Islamic group blew himself up while making a bomb.
FA: Tell us about Terence O’Donnell. When did you first meet him and how was your stay with him in Shiraz, at the Baugh-a- Salar Jang?
JL: Terry O’Donnell (see photo) came to talk to a group of Peace Corps volunteers training in Vermont. I was taken with him; it was in the summer of 1968. We met again in Shiraz later that year. We came to the Garden in September 1968. We took an old plane to Shiraz and a taxi to Ghasr Dasht. From the Falakeh (the traffic circle), at the end of the paved road, it was half a mile, and then you would turn right into the garden, his place. It was there that we met him and Mamdali.(see photo) We stayed in the guest quarters for two weeks until later when we got our own one bedroom apartment in the middle of town. Our landlord was a Yazdi cloth merchant, a Zoroastrian who had converted to the Bahai faith.
During the day, Terry would go out looking for things. Little by little, he was established there; we would sit in his garden, have a little vodka and talk and listen to him. He always had lots of guests, Americans; Iranians of all classes would come to stay there. But he also valued his privacy a lot. Sometimes, he would come to see us in town. He taught English and wrote stories. His stories on Iran were published in different Journals. His short stories were published in the Atlantic Magazine. He was a mostly self-educated man who had traveled the world and had gone to University of Chicago.
JL: First time I went to Iran in was 1962. At that time I was a university student. My father was assigned there with the old Asleh 4 (the planning organization) which was the ancestor of USAID. He and my mother lived in Tehran and I went to visit them in the summer time. I didn’t know much about the country but I spent a couple of month there, in Tehran, Shiraz, Isfahan, and was fascinated. I took courses at in Persian language at the old Iran-America society. The other coincidence at that time was that my mother, who was a social worker, was teaching at what was then The Tehran School of Social Work, which was run by Mrs. Setareh Farmanfarmaian(see photo). It later turned out on that one of her students was the sister of my future wife. At the time, I had no idea that I would be marrying her student’s sister!So I came back to the US and started taking courses at Harvard in Middle East history and culture. In those days, Sir Hamilton Gibb was the star there. I took Arabic language courses as well. I found it fascinating. When I finished my undergraduate work, I went into the Peace Corps. They usually ask you what your preference is; I said the Middle East, which in those days would have meant Iran, Cyprus, or Turkey.
I was part of the Peace Corps Iran in Group 4. We did our training in the summer of 1964 at the University of Michigan. Eden Nabi (who later became Professor Richard Frye’s wife) was in our group, but Iranians would not give her a visa. She was Assyrian, born in Iran. I went to Sanandaj, the capital of Kurdistan Iran, and started teaching English for two years. My wife’s father was a doctor in town. She had been teaching in Tehran but she was transferred back to her hometown. We ended up teaching in the same High School. English was required for the last 6 years; what was called Cycle one and Cycle two. She taught Physical Education. That is where we first met.
We were married in 1966, and in that same year we left Iran and came to the US. We lived in Cambridge. I was doing a Ph.D. in History of the Middle East, working with, among others, Richard Frye and Manouchehr Mohandessi. I also worked with the German Rumi scholar, Annemarie Schimmel. The scholar Wheeler Thackston was a then student and later taught Persian at Harvard. Although we lived in genteel poverty and at times Cambridge was cold and dark, life as a graduate student had its rewards. I remembered that I missed Iran terribly and wanted to go back. I finished my Ph.D. oral exams in the spring of 1968.
FA: Were your children were born in Iran and do they still speak Persian?
JL: My wife Parvaneh spoke Persian and both Kurdish and English and now we still speak mostly Persian together. The kids understand and speak both languages (Persian and English). Our daughter was born in 1969 in Tehran. She currently teaches anthropology at Queens College. Our son was also born in Shiraz in 1971.
FA: What drew you back to Iran and the Middle East?
JL: It’s a good question. It was the Middle East in general; not just the food, not just the scenery, but above all the people. Terry O’Donnell, who later became a friend, says: “Iranians are very much like us, only more so.” Friendships and bonds are much stronger; there is closeness and intimacy, good interaction between families, as exists in almost all Middle Eastern societies. Friendships are quiet powerful and intense. Once in a while I get a message from an old friend from 30 years ago. By contrast, the human dimension is very limited in our society; it is scattered, we are less connected to each other. In Iran, it is different. I think it was the Iranian people who drew me back, mainly.
FA: Why did you go to Shiraz?
JL: In 1968 we went to Iran, this time to Shiraz. I was doing research for my dissertation and was there at the invitation of the Asia Institute of Shiraz. Dr. Arthur Upham Pope was the head of the old Asia Institute under the umbrella of University of Shiraz. There was also Dr. Houshang Nahvandi and Dr Farhang Mehr, who were chancellors of the University. Life was not terribly expensive. Parvaneh taught in High school. She had studied Physical Education at Daneshsarayeh Ali, in Khiyaban (street) Roosevelt in Tehran. At the time there were not many women who had Bachelor degrees (they were few women who were “lisensieh” (with a B.A.).
After a few months, I started teaching at the University. It was the late 60’s. Between the two of us, we had a middle-class salary; we made about 4,000 Toman a month, so we had an okay life. We lived in Kucheh Dejban, Khiyabaneh Zand. At that time, to get a taxi you would pay 5 -10 rials. We lived comfortably and ended up staying there for 4 years. Life was too good but I was unable to finish Reconstruction of Shiraz in 14th century, a book on the times of Hafez.
I knew I had serious academic work ahead of me. Most of our friends were from the University circles such as Dr. Dehghan and Dr. Ghorban. Everyone knew him of course; in our neighborhood there were also many Bahai families. I had both Bahai and Muslim students. During Ramadan, there was lots of cooking. We also knew Dr. Tavallali and his wife among others.
I finished my Ph.D. in 1973. Dr. Esmail Ajami, who was a sociologist and Associate Dean of the Arts and Science Faculty, told me the University would pay my air fare back to Cambridge, and when I finished I could work as a permanent faculty member at Pahlavi University (formerly Shiraz U) and build up the history department. However, after I finished the Ph.D. I decided not to return to Shiraz. I told Shiraz University officials that I would repay the transportation cost. But they said it’s Ok. They were very decent people. When I finally finished with my Ph.D., I went to Professor Frye who was my advisor, and asked him about jobs prospects He laughed and said “There aren’t any and never will be.”
FA: What happened then?
JL: So I took the Foreign Service exam. I had a choice to join the Foreign Service or join the faculty at Shiraz as an assistant professor. In June 1973 I joined the Foreign Service. For 33 years, I was in the Foreign Service. I was assigned different posts in United Arab Emirates and other countries.
At that time I did not want to serve in Iran. It was the period of the Nixon- Kissinger doctrine. I did not like our policies there. Instead, I spent almost three years in the United Arab Emirates, 15 months in Tunisia studying Arabic, and 18 months in Saudi Arabia.
In early 1979, just before the downfall of the shah I volunteered to go to Tehran. It was in August 1979 when I joined the embassy in Tehran.
FA: What made you go there? Why did you make such a decision?
JL:Khariat!! (Stupidity), and it was also curiosity. Something had changed. We all thought, like you, that this was going to be big for Iran and for the US, and that it in a way it was a good thing, in a strange and friendly way.
The US and the Shah had been too close. What kept him in the throne was our support; he did what we asked him to do. Iran seemed to be an ally, but a little too much so. The country identified him with us and for this very reason people did not like this about the regime. There was discontent, in general people were not at ease about the system. Though, people were benefiting, doing well, but you could sense that something wasn’t right. It was sort of an open opposition. There were all kinds of fliers and leaflets distributed, there were demonstrations, and most were underground. There was corruption; especially involving the royal family and their entourage. The appointment of Richard Helms as American ambassador to Iran was a symbolic act, one which Iranians did not appreciate, since he had been the head of the CIA. Americans I talked to had good and bad feelings. It was also some sad periods. No one would dare say anything openly or spoke about US, Iran, the CIA. The Shah was more of a décor. He was a symbol of degradation. Few Americans understood this but when I talked to Iranians, they did understand. I saw occasional strikes at the universities. I remember that one of my Shiraz students from an Islamic group blew himself up while making a bomb.
FA: Tell us about Terence O’Donnell. When did you first meet him and how was your stay with him in Shiraz, at the Baugh-a- Salar Jang?
JL: Terry O’Donnell (see photo) came to talk to a group of Peace Corps volunteers training in Vermont. I was taken with him; it was in the summer of 1968. We met again in Shiraz later that year. We came to the Garden in September 1968. We took an old plane to Shiraz and a taxi to Ghasr Dasht. From the Falakeh (the traffic circle), at the end of the paved road, it was half a mile, and then you would turn right into the garden, his place. It was there that we met him and Mamdali.(see photo) We stayed in the guest quarters for two weeks until later when we got our own one bedroom apartment in the middle of town. Our landlord was a Yazdi cloth merchant, a Zoroastrian who had converted to the Bahai faith.
During the day, Terry would go out looking for things. Little by little, he was established there; we would sit in his garden, have a little vodka and talk and listen to him. He always had lots of guests, Americans; Iranians of all classes would come to stay there. But he also valued his privacy a lot. Sometimes, he would come to see us in town. He taught English and wrote stories. His stories on Iran were published in different Journals. His short stories were published in the Atlantic Magazine. He was a mostly self-educated man who had traveled the world and had gone to University of Chicago.
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