Kurdistan, New Israel

[mike435]

alot of the the world used to belong to the persian empire
just face it you are ok with denying a group of people there right to there own statehood

[donsaeid]

time of empires where they were big countries are over! that they could decide here you go! this is your country! and non of those countries want to give they land to kurds!

and having a country isnt a total right! and dont mix israel palestine here because that is all other thing!

and if they want to take part of iran we will fight them until their last man!

[mike435]

said you know this is what i dont get
i personally am ticked off that it is part of iran
but non the less i do belive that humans have right
what i want to know is what diffrence does it make for iran werther it has that part of te country or not at the end of the day 60-100% of the population is kurdish and does not consider itself iranian so why should iran hold on to theme.
my question why will you fight untill the last man for a piece of land that is insignificant?
i would understand if it was a part that mattered to irans history or culture or a part that had a majority concentration of persian
but to die until the last man i think that is a bit to steep?

[donsaeid]

no man! they see them self at iranians! why? because they got every right a iranian has! they dont have natural ressurses in iranian part of kurdistan! just strategical!

and iranian kurds live 100 times better than iraqi and turkish or syrian or armenian kurds!

they are enjoying them self in iran!

these problems comes from kurds in iraq or turkey and nothing to do with iran!

even PKK have start a brand in iran called Pezhvak!

so iranian kurds having fun dude! trouble makers are Iraqi and Turkish kurds!

[mike435]

i am sure your right but i dono what it is that people want there own sovernty even though if it mans being worse off

it is a tricky situation

at the end of the day i think one has to be moral
the same way that i want sovernty over my land i should grant that to other too

well it is an example

[donsaeid]

mike! you know i like you bro! but you talk 99% BS!

[mike435]

no i genuinly belive that
i really do belive that people desrve there sovernty
please point out why i dont wnat to driffet from the subject

[donsaeid]

give your support to palestinian state! be part of a march for palestinian state! and i will believe what i think now is just hot air from you!

you got it totally wrong! as you say you need a reason! Iranian Kurds dont have any reason!

but if Iraq gets divided as Republican Presidential candidates suggested, iranian kurds will have a reason! a nationalistic reason! no their nation is IRAN! but when a kurdistan is started in Iraq it will take whole region to fire! as Israel did when it started in 1945! in start israel was just half of what it is now!
and also several wars with their neighbours!

that is why im saying If a kurdistan is started we will have Israel V.2 Beta in 3D!!!!!!

[donsaeid]

High Expectations of Independence
For Many Kurds in Iraqi North, Autonomy Is Just a Means to an End

By Ellen Knickmeyer

IRBIL, Iraq -- Two hundred miles south, in the distant Iraqi capital of Baghdad, Iraq's top Kurdish leaders have pledged that they want to keep the Kurdish north as part of Iraq, as Washington and all Iraq's neighbors want.

But here at noon on a tarmac training ground in the north, in the Kurdish regional capital of Irbil, the Kurdish forces pivoting through a parade drill last week were marching to a different tune -- under a different flag, and to a different tongue.


Iraq's Kurds are "100 percent" for independence, said the battalion commander, Col. Sayyid Hajar Tahir, as his subordinates led the men in turning battle squares.

The Kurds wore the brown-on-brown of Iraq's new national forces, to which they technically belong. But the flag flying here and across the region known as Kurdistan was the Kurdish sunburst, with Iraq's green and white banner nowhere in sight. Tahir's officers droned their orders in Kurdish, not the Arabic of the Arab majority down south.

With all the changes afoot in Iraq, the Kurdish commander said, he expected Kurdish independence to be coming soon.

"If not today, then tomorrow," Tahir said, smiling. "If not tomorrow, the day after."

The demands from Kurdistan for independence and for immediate action on broader territorial claims are shaping much of the debate in Baghdad as Shiite Arabs, Sunni Arabs, Kurds, who mostly practice the Sunni version of Islam, and other groups draft the country's post-Saddam Hussein constitution.

Kurds have led the drive for a federal system for Iraq -- one that would leave Kurdistan within Iraq's borders, but preserve much of the de facto autonomy Kurds gained under U.S. protection after the 1991 Persian Gulf War. Sunni Arabs say the federal system could lead to the breakup of Iraq.

Delegates to the constitutional committee call the federalism proposal the main unresolved dispute as drafters of the charter struggle to meet an Aug. 15 deadline. Some delegates spoke Sunday of an extension to work out the impasse.

While avoiding talk of independence, some top Kurdish leaders in Baghdad are staking a claim to the right of Kurdish self-determination, saying the Kurdish north will remain in Iraq, but only by choice.

Kurdistan and other regions of the new, federal Iraq should "coexist voluntarily together as opposed to being kept together by brute force and genocide," said Barham Salih, an influential minister in the interim Iraqi government drafting the national constitution.

The federal system "could provide the Kurdish people with a safe and secure way to self-governance," Salih added.


It's a view seldom heard on the streets of Kurdistan.

"Independence!" said mechanic Sammi Muhammed, interrupting a question about whether he preferred federalism or independence. He spoke at the foot of Irbil's ancient fortress, the center of what Kurds say is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world.

"I don't like Iraq -- Arabic Iraq. I'm a Kurd and I'm in Kurdistan," Muhammed insisted, then volunteered, "I'm ready to fight."

At issue is the future of the 4 million to 5 million Kurds in Iraq, as well as the total estimated 30 million ethnic Kurds inhabiting a swath of territory from Turkey to the republics of the former Soviet Union.

Historically stateless, Kurds have lost out on every nation-building bid since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire.

Turkey, Syria and Iran fear that independence for Kurdistan would encourage uprisings by their own minority Kurds. Some in Iran already blame violence last month, when Kurds rioted in one border city and Kurdish guerrillas killed three policemen, on the recent inauguration of the first elected regional president for Kurdistan, Massoud Barzani, a longtime Kurdish faction leader.

U.S. officials have tried to squelch Kurdish aspirations for independence, endorsing instead a weak federal system.

Iraq's Kurdish leaders know that declaring Kurdistan's independence now would risk economic strangulation or attack by its neighbors.

With no seaport of its own, Kurdistan depends on trade rolling across the border by truck from Turkey for its current economic surge. Foreign companies and nonprofit groups, discouraged by bombings, kidnappings and mayhem from setting up shop to the south, are also moving in.

Scrambling to overcome Kurdistan's isolation, Kurds opened international airports in Irbil in April, and in the eastern Kurdish city of Sulaymaniyah last week. Newly created Kurdistan Airlines logged its first flight last month. Arab neighbors have so far refused it permission to schedule direct flights to their countries, a sign of the shunning an independent Kurdistan could expect.

Construction cranes, steel girders and rising concrete blocks dominate the squat skyline of Irbil, in contrast to the bombed-out blight of Baghdad.

The prosperity and comparative peace of the north have brought increasingly assertive Kurdish demands upon the struggling, Shiite-led national government in Baghdad -- demands that leaders here say must be met to ensure Kurdish approval of the eventual constitution.

For example, the Kurdish parliament has called for a Kurdish vote on independence to be held in eight years, said Adnan Mufti, president of the Kurdish assembly.

Kurdish leaders also have demanded the return of several towns and cities they say are historically Kurdish. The claim extends above all to ***kuk, the center of northern Iraq's oil production.

Hussein's government in the late 1980s moved thousands of Arab families into ***kuk to offset other ethnic groups' claims to the city. Since his fall, hundreds of Kurdish families have moved to ***kuk, squatting in a stadium and elsewhere, ready for what Kurds say must be the mandatory relocation of those Arab families.

Mufti said Kurdish leaders have pushed for the Baghdad government to take concrete steps toward moving out those Arab families before the Aug. 15 deadline for the constitution.

Kurdish leaders in Baghdad denied linking those demands to Kurdish approval of the constitution. They also said the resettlement of Arab families installed by Hussein would be peaceful, and was overdue.

Already, assassinations of Arab officials in ***kuk are frequent. Kurds in the security forces have also been accused of kidnapping hundreds of Arabs and ethnic Turkmens from ***kuk, according to U.S. and Kurdish officials and the family members of the alleged victims.

Many Kurds fear those security forces as well. They freeze and fall silent when asked in public about Barzani's administration, as Iraqis did in Hussein's time in Baghdad.

Alleged abuses under Barzani's government, and the uneasy detente between Barzani's political party and the one that controls the east of Kurdistan, threaten future trouble for Kurdistan, whatever its status.

Independence-minded Kurds, however, say they want only to start the experiment of nation-building.

"The people are very happy," Tahir said. "Because they're going to be part of the future."

[donsaeid]

Fear of Kurdish Independence

Feud with Kurds colours Turkey's negotiations with US.

by: DEXTER FILKINS

As Turkish and American diplomats struggled this week to strike a deal on the use of American troops in northern Iraq, one of the most intractable hurdles for negotiators has proven to be Turkey's bitter history with the Kurds.

The long struggle between the two groups, which resulted in one of the region's bloodiest insurgencies in the 1990s, is figuring prominently in Turkey's calculations over how to deal with the Bush administration's request to use the country as a base for thousands of American combat troops.

In an interview Thursday night on Turkish television, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the leader of Turkey's governing party, said for the first time that the future of Iraq's Kurdish area, which abuts a border region of Turkey also heavily populated by Kurds, was weighing heavily on the negotiations.

``The case here is not as simple as bargaining over dollars,'' Mr Erdogan said.

``We're talking about the restructuring of the region. How the situation there is going to play out; we have to assess all of this.''

Mr Erdogan provided few details, but he hinted at what Turkish officials here have been saying privately for weeks: that if war comes to Iraq, the overriding Turkish objective would not be helping the Americans topple Saddam Hussein, but rather preventing the Kurds in Iraq from forming their own state.

For years, this vision has haunted Turkish officials, who fear that Kurdish autonomy in Iraq could revive similar dreams among the 12 million ethnic Kurds living in Turkey.

To make sure it doesn't happen, the Turks are planning to send thousands of their own troops into northern Iraq behind an advancing American army.

The reason offered in public is to control the flow of Kurdish refugees, thousands of whom poured into Turkey after the Persian Gulf war in 1991.

Publicly, at least, the other two protagonists in the operation, the Americans and the Kurds, say they are willing to go along.

In private, though, the Turkish plans appear to be causing deep unease among both the Americans and the Kurds, who fear that Turkey's aggressive designs threaten to ignite deep-seated ethnic feuds in the region, complicate America's war plans and lay the groundwork for Turkey to dominate the Kurdish region in a post-Saddam Iraq.

The Turkish fear of Kurdish independence is so intense that some analysts here have put forward another possibility: If the Americans get bogged down fighting the Iraqi army in the north, Turkish troops may try to seize the oil fields near ***kuk and Mosul, to ensure that they stay out of Kurdish hands.

``The bottom line is that the Turks will do whatever they can to hinder the development of a Kurdish state in northern Iraq,'' said Mensur Akgun, director of foreign policy at the Turkish Social and Economic Studies Foundation.

``If worse comes to worse, Turkey would be willing to occupy those areas, at least temporarily.''

The roots of the modern Turkish-Kurdish feud lie in the territorial settlements that followed the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War.

In drawing the boundaries of what became the modern Middle East, the victors left the Kurds without a country, and instead dispersed the Kurdish population among Iran, Syria, Turkey and Iraq.

The postwar settlement also denied Turkish claims to large parts of northern Iraq, which holds substantial numbers of ethnic Turks.

While the Kurds long harboured dreams of their own state, those hopes crystallised into armed conflict in the 1990s.

Under the leadership of Abdullah Ocalan, Kurdish rebels in Turkey mounted a violent bid for a separate state.

It took the Turkish government most of the decade to crush the insurgency, which left as many as 30,000 people dead.

But as the Turks were busy putting down the Kurds in Turkey, the Kurds in Iraq were busy setting up a state within a state.

Turkish leaders have watched the thriving Iraqi Kurds with greater and greater suspicion.

In 1997, Turkish troops crossed the border to hunt down suspected Kurdish militants. The Turkish soldiers, some 1,200 of them, have been there ever since.

Failing assurances from the Americans to block any attempt by the Kurds to form their own state, the Turks appear ready to take matters into their own hands.

In recent weeks, Turkish leaders have publicly pledged to send twice the number of troops into northern Iraq as the Americans.

They have also promised to protect the region's Turkmen population, which would put the Turkish army deep in Iraq.

In the end, some Turkish commentators say, the negotiations with the Americans are hampered by a lack of trust.

The Kurdish region of northern Iraq has flourished under the encouragement of successive American presidents, who have seen it as a bulwark against Saddam.

If war comes to Iraq, these Turkish commentators say, many in the Turkish government fear that the Americans, rather than blocking the Kurdish bids for a new state, would try to help the Kurds along.

``The Turks do not trust the Americans to be an honest broker,'' said Dogu Ergil, a professor of political science at Ankara University. ``And they don't believe Turkey will be in control of northern Iraq once Saddam is gone.''

[donsaeid]

[donsaeid]

[mike435]

give your support to palestinian state! be part of a march for palestinian state! and i will believe what i think now is just hot air from you!

you got it totally wrong! as you say you need a reason! Iranian Kurds dont have any reason!

but if Iraq gets divided as Republican Presidential candidates suggested, iranian kurds will have a reason! a nationalistic reason! no their nation is IRAN! but when a kurdistan is started in Iraq it will take whole region to fire! as Israel did when it started in 1945! in start israel was just half of what it is now!
and also several wars with their neighbours!

that is why im saying If a kurdistan is started we will have Israel V.2 Beta in 3D!!!!!!

i dont want to deviate but i belive it or not and as hawkish i am when it comes to israel i genuinly do belive in a two state solution but i will never heed there fight for a state because theri approach is evil whicked disrespectful and immoral. As along as they believe in murdering innocent civilians and believe in the destruction of i Israel, i will sadly restraint my concerns .

now back to the subject
you basically said that becuase of the troboule it is going to cause lets forget about there rights
interesting view
this is the same ideology that says who cares about the minority it will be to much troboule to the majorty to care about the minorities rights
imagin if this thinking was still enforced jews and to some extent it is still being enforced on Hispanics and blacks.


and regarding reason the reason is there it just hast been realized yet it doesn't mean its not there for example its the same with jews in every "right of passage" in jeduasim from barmitzva to wedding to everything else the desire to return to Jerusalem is there it just that it was only realized 40years ago.

and by the way lets not be naive the middle east is the ******* of the world and being that it allways has to shit so if it wasn't Israel it would have been the Arabs fighting themselves

look we are passionate people we can never agree why do you think were ever democracy goes in the middle east civil war breaks out
someone need to give theme all some weed and bobmarly music so they chill out

[donsaeid]

that is how you chill out?

read those 3 articles i posted! and give me your reflections on them!

that is 3 different view by 3 different personalities and believes!

[donsaeid]