Terrorism of Zionism

[zubin]

very nicly put very clear and percisie here are some of my opinions


i cant really argue the US part becuase i am not very familier with it
so i will stick to zionist movment which finaly led to Israels creation and is curently maintaining the country

Believe it or not, Israel is a tool for US neo-cons. How? By being a psychologically compelling force for the ME people to give in to forced democracy. I hope I don't have to clarify this point for you, but will if you'd like.

In regards to daboul standerds i genuinly dont know what you mean maybe because i am to deeptly invested in my own point of view so please elaborate on that.

Accusing people of "terrorism" when guilty of the same, equivalent or worse practices is an example of a double standard.

Being a nuclear threat but being against others to be one is also a double standard.

the israelis arnt killing to avenge

Do you have any proof of this. Are you in the mind of the Israeli government and are sure that anger plays no role?

not even to protect theme selfs except for assasinated killings

Not even to protect themselves? That's the Israeli justification for everything, isn't it? If not, then what justifies their violence?

In any case, their method of self-defence is immoral and unjustified. They need to tone down the military might and expansionism.

when innocent people die it is ussualy because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Are you referring to "collaterial damage"? That's just a fancy term for the justification of killing innocents. There's no difference between what is called in corporate media "terrorism" and "collateral damage".

Deprivation this is what i really have problem with
how has israel deprived the arab world, please give examples has stolen their furtile land, has it stolen their oil, has destroyed their enviorment, has ruind their education system, has it taken away jobs or industry from the arab nations no not realy the muslim world has never suffered at the hand of israelis
the palastinians another story

Palestinians are Arabs and mostly Muslim

and lets say that you are right in all those points
israel kills, deprives, and uses daboul standards
what about when there was no israel the arabs still hated the zionist and the jews

And the European Jews that came to Palestine hated Arabs and Muslims. You didn't know that?

but look we can go back and forth for eternity it has been going on like this for the past almost 60 years

Why not seek and accept the truth instead of going "back and forth for eternity"? Also, the past does not predict the future. Just because people have babbled on in the past, doesn't mean that today's world will be the same. There is more information, communication, and the realization of the need and inevitability of peaceful co-existence in today's world.

we have to look past this
what pissed me off is all this bitching and moaning of israel this, zionist that and i hated when people just keep cartiging and because their cartiuqe could be right they think they are right

Truth is right. And everyone is victim to the blame game at the moment. I don't see what makes Israelis more special at the moment.

look all this cartiquinging will not sole anything will only creat a bigger divide
the fact is israelis have a solution for theme selfs and while they better there solution the palastinians are left behined cartiquing and hoping for a better life.

What's the solution? Does it involve truth, justice and compromise or not? I don't see how things will work or should work without these elements.

as i have said again their is no reason of why the palastinian cant achive what the zionist achived.

One reason might be the practical reality that Israel is sitting on most of Palestinian land, but yet is setting high standards for discussing even small compromises.

even if israel were to seise to excist the muslim world will still be in a caose

Then this message would be addressed to whoever was causing that chaos. But the reality is that Israeli injustice is the most salient injustice in the ME and that a just peace with Jews in the region will de-motivate much anger, provide prospects for the future, and potentially lead as an example and inspire for peace in the world. One can easily say that if Israel didn't come to exist, neither would the oppressive regime of Iran.


I have enjoyed this conversation so far. I hope you have the strength to seek the truth and take it seriously. This will be a determining factor to your own pride and peaceful co-existence.

Israel clearly also has good points and arguments. The key will be to accept the faults while maintaining those arguments according to their value and humility.

Yet, please feel free to continue this conversation and offer a rebuttal, particularly on specific points in which you disagree.

A passing note that I respect your diverse culture very much and enjoy the company of Jews in friends and family.

Yours truly,

Ramin

[persian_king]

this was one of the best answers i ve ever seen in a forum. thank you very much for your effort and God bless you!!

Believe it or not, Israel is a tool for US neo-cons. How? By being a psychologically compelling force to give into forced democracy. I hope I don't have to clarify this point for you, but will if you'd like.



Accusing people of "terrorism" when guilty of the same, equivalent or worse practices is an example of a double standard.

Being a nuclear threat but being against others to be one is also a double standard.



Do you have any proof of this. Are you in the mind of the Israeli government and are sure that anger plays no role?



Not even to protect themselves? That's the Israeli justification for everything, isn't it? If not, then what justifies their violence?

In any case, their method of self-defence is immoral and unjustified. They need to tone down the military might and expansionism.



Are you referring to "collaterial damage"? That's just a fancy term for the justification of innocents. There's no difference between what is called in corporate media "terrorism" and "collateral damage".



Palestinians are Arabs and mostly Muslim




And the European Jews that came to Palestine hated Arabs and Muslims. You didn't know that?



Why not seek and accept the truth instead of going "back and forth for eternity"? Also, the past does not predict the future. Just because people have babbled on in the past, doesn't mean that today's world will be the same. There is more information, communication, and the realization of the need and inevitability of peaceful co-existence in today's world.



Truth is right. And everyone is victim to the blame game at the moment. I don't see what makes Israelis more special at the moment.



What's the solution? Does it involve truth, justice and compromise or not? I don't see how things will work or should work without these elements.



One reason might be the practical reality that Israel is sitting on most of Palestinian land, but yet is setting high standards for discussing even small compromises.



Then this message would be addressed to whoever was causing that chaos. But the reality is that justice with regard to Israeli is the cause and solution to make of the ME's problems at the moment. One can arguably say that if Israel didn't come to exist, neither would the oppressive regime of Iran.


I enjoyed this conversation. I hope you have the strength to seek the truth and take it seriously. This will be a determining factor to your own pride and peaceful co-existence.
Israel clearly also has good points and arguments. The key will be to accept the faults while maintaining those arguments according to their value and humility.

A passing note that I respect your culture very much and enjoy the company of Jews in friends and family.

Yours truly,

Ramin

[mike435]

Believe it or not, Israel is a tool for US neo-cons. How? By being a psychologically compelling force for the ME people to give in to forced democracy. I hope I don't have to clarify this point for you, but will if you'd like.



..........................
Ramin

great responce man beutiful you didnt just blab

i will be posting my response soon i want to give it the respect it deservs, that is why i will not just post my gut reaction

thanks for your sharing
great asset to the forum

[zubin]

great responce man beutiful you didnt just blab

i will be posting my response soon i want to give it the respect it deservs, that is why i will not just post my gut reaction

thanks for your sharing
great asset to the forum

I'm so glad you don't have a hostile attitude and are interested in conversation. With the issues we're discussing, this is hard to find. But given the potential positive attitude on this forum, I think there is a unique opportunity here to research and discuss issues.

Take your time.

[zubin]

this was one of the best answers i ve ever seen in a forum. thank you very much for your effort and God bless you!!

o man... you should see the discussions with roughnecks out there on other specialized forums. You probably already know this... but many people have these really, really entrenched "coherent" framework in their mind which prompts very, very difficult argumentation. But I'm increasingly getting into discussion under those circumstances anyway. It's a dark, dark world though... No "Aman". That's why I'm more and more starting to like animals and nature more than humans! I mean... not really, but a frog or turtle, or a river or shrub isn't going to make you feel like you're shrinking to the size of an action figure...

[persian_king]

hahahaaaaaa, very funny, but true i agree with you!! unfortunately everybody wants to force his or her ideas to another, and with such a force comes alot of things. i guess as you are saying we are going back to dark age. lol

o man... you should see the discussions with roughnecks out there on other specialized forums. You probably already know this... but many people have these really, really entrenched "coherent" framework in their mind which prompts very, very difficult argumentation. But I'm increasingly getting into that. It's a dark, dark world though... No "Aman". That's why I'm more and more starting to like animals and nature more than humans! I mean... not really, but a frog or turtle, or a river or shrub isn't going to make you feel like you're shrinking to the size of an action figure...

[mike435]

cool just finished my midterm gonne start responding to your post.

[zubin]

s#&+!!!

(take your time...)

[mike435]

PART I

Believe it or not, Israel is a tool for US neo-cons. How? By being a psychologically compelling force to give into forced democracy. I hope I don't have to clarify this point for you, but will if you'd like.Ramin

please clarify this one i do agree that at times US does use Israel no doubt, but what do you mean with “By being a psychologically compelling force to give into forced democracy”.
Also keep in mined israel did start as a communist maxist based ideology,

Accusing people of "terrorism" when guilty of the same, equivalent or worse practices is an example of a double standard.Ramin

when i use terrorism i am referring to intentionally killing kids and innocent specifically going after life specifically designing an attack that will cause the most cultural death. Lets be honest Israel does not attack to maximize death, it goes to great lengths to assassinate heads of these terrorist groups, it goes to great lancths and sacrifices to surgically hunt and destroy threats facing the security of the country, example missle launchers, compounds, facility, roge personal hamas leaders terrorist etc.
Also true bombs, military aircrafts and etc do inflict terror it s not an calming seen to see explosions and caos. But can you see that there is a big diffrnt between these two types of terror.

Being a nuclear threat but being against others to be one is also a double standard.Ramin

are they oppose to India, or even Pakistan being a nuclear power or treat. If you are referring to Islamic Republic you are right it should be and very well so, Islamic republic is very unstable and is being lead by a theocracy of dictators it only uses the logic of a few compared to Israel were a whole body is behind the trigger. Also these threats are different Islamic republic is not defending its soveighrnty, it is not defending it people from territorial attack from neighboring countries, it only wants a bomb so it can get attention from the world and dictate it ways.
On the other hand Israel use of deterrence by nuclear threat is very well justified because of it bomb it is able to fend off surrounding countries it is able dictate its right to existence.

Do you have any proof of this. Are you in the mind of the Israeli government and are sure that anger plays no role?Ramin

the Israeli society and government is made up of soldiers. their is mandatory service for female and male. Most of the country is reservist or active duty soldiers, almost a hundred percent of times for a politician to be accepted he will have to have served in the army considering this i believe their is a lot of weight behind a soldiers way of thinking,
and yes i was with many Israeli soldiers same ones that go in to Gaza same ones that man the check points and I think I was even with some that were in the intligce unit (those guys are bad ***)
majority of the ones i met at random hate hamas and islamic jihad and these orginization and love their country, the amount of love they have for their country and people is unexplainable, but they truly do believe a two state solution and they genuinely do care about the Palestinian people sounds Ironic I know thats what I said to them too, “I said how can you be concerned when you are in their face all the time. )” many of theme told me how shity the Palestinian life is and their like it sucks we have to go and force ourselves on them, but the reason he sees its worth it and bleives in doing it is because if he doesn’t do it his life is over, He says if we man a check point a bullet or bomb blows up one soldier, in the country it will kill a lot more.

Another reason is the government is made up of a multi party coalition, it is always breaking down because there is so much disagreement, I think there are more checks and balances in the kenneset than in the American for government. Are their people on the kenneset that anger and reveng drive theme yes they are it is a democracy and they are part of the minority the same way you have the Israeli-arab coalitions that are totally the opposite way and want to unanimously disengage from all the land imidietly but they balance each other out.

END OF PART I

[mike435]

PART II

Not even to protect themselves? That's the Israeli justification for everything, isn't it? If not, then what justifies their violence?Ramin

In any case, their method of self-defence is immoral and unjustified. They need to tone down the military might and expansionism.Ramin

it is not unjust. or if you see it that way tell me why. But before you give me your opinion consider this, they have truly exsosted the diplomatic fronts,
how many chances did they give to the Palestinians, how many osloes were their when israel held up it promise and their was a daboule face politics with Arafat, Israel has even given weapons, and aids to the PA so it can better govern. After israel and Arafat agreed to educate their people to understand the situation and accept the other side and for Israelis to recognize the PA and for palastinians vice versa. This is evident israel did educate its people most Israelis do want a two state solution most do recognize the PA or atleast they did before hamas. Israelis did this while Arafat was preaching jihad against the Israelis.

Are you referring to "collaterial damage"? That's just a fancy term for the justification of innocents. There's no difference between what is called in corporate media "terrorism" and "collateral damage".Ramin

there is a huge difference
you are honestly seriouse how can you be serious that katushas falling with ball baring on civilian centers is the same as the unfortunate and disasters event of gauna were kids died when an israeli strike after a missile launchers coincided with a building filled with civilians. And that is only because Hezbollah had knowingly hide behind civilians, and you saw after that Israel started to increasingly use ground troops and go house to house. Remember this was after many many pamphlets droped in the are telling people to leave. And in regards to the palastinians if the palastinian teen is endangering the soldirs life throwing rocks and creating caos and he dosent adhere to warning and get shot he is no longer collateral casualty he was a neutralized threat.

Palestinians are Arabs and mostly Muslim
I have come to belive they are not arabs. I said that to some palastinians they got mad. Also if they were arabs why dont the arab population take care of theme. The are muslims
also when i was talking about arabs i meant every one in the region except palastinians and Iran.Ramin

And the European Jews that came to Palestine hated Arabs and Muslims. You didn't know that?Ramin

Why not seek and accept the truth instead of going "back and forth for eternity"? Also, the past does not predict the future. Just because people have babbled on in the past, doesn't mean that today's world will be the same. There is more information, communication, and the realization of the need and inevitability of peaceful co-existence in today's world.Ramin

Truth is right. And everyone is victim to the blame game at the moment. I don't see what makes Israelis more special at the moment.Ramin

truth is right, in the sence that it is a fact, but it is not truth that is the problem here the problem here are causes that pleufe rge reality of these people,

What's the solution? Does it involve truth, justice and compromise or not? I don't see how things will work or should work without these elements. Ramin

the solution involves justice and compromise and the use of facts and evidence to creat a solution,
and they wont work with out these elements. The prolem is that no matter how much coprimise, and acts you do that are just or fair, if there is not a helping hand on the other side it is useless.

You are objective can you tell me in the past how many times the palastinians have cooporated with israelis in the peace process. Or made copremises legitimate compromises,
When the palastinians were about to get the best deal of their life time they refused it.

One reason might be the practical reality that Israel is sitting on most of Palestinian land, but yet is setting high standards for discussing even small compromises. Ramin

they are have a presence in the west bank, in return for the west bank they want security and recognition is that to much to ask for or is that high of a standard. They want a guarantee that their kids wont be subject to suicide bombs and that they can pass freely trough out their country with out fearing they will be blown up or attacked because they are Israelis

Then this message would be addressed to whoever was causing that chaos. But the reality is that justice with regard to Israeli is the cause and solution to make of the ME's problems at the moment. One can arguably say that if Israel didn't come to exist, neither would the oppressive regime of Iran.Ramin


I enjoyed this conversation. I hope you have the strength to seek the truth and take it seriously. This will be a determining factor to your own pride and peaceful co-existence.
Israel clearly also has good points and arguments. The key will be to accept the faults while maintaining those arguments according to their value and humility.

A passing note that I respect your culture very much and enjoy the company of Jews in friends and family.

Yours truly,

Ramin

[zubin]

please clarify this one i do agree that at times US does use Israel no doubt, but what do you mean with “By being a psychologically compelling force to give into forced democracy”.
Also keep in mined israel did start as a communist maxist based ideology

Israelis constantly claim superiority to the rest of the middle east in terms of their system, and the US vigorously uses its various powers to further support the same system. These make for a deceptive and cruel justification for forced democracy.

If you agree with this statement then we're clear on this point.

when i use terrorism i am referring to intentionally killing kids and innocent specifically going after life specifically designing an attack that will cause the most cultural death

The design of the attack is destroying the coherence of the Israeli state and disrupting its existence, not "the targetting of innocent people". They don't sit down and say, ok, lets not care about the Israeli state but instead simply go after innocent people. They say, let's go after the Israeli state, which innocent people are inevitably a part of.

Is there any where you disagree with this statement?

Lets be honest Israel does not attack to maximize death

Neither does Hamas. They want to maximize disruption of the Israeli state, which innocent people are a part of.

But can you see that there is a big diffrnt between these two types of terror.

You're saying Israeli terror is less terrorizing than Palestinian?

If you are referring to Islamic Republic you are right it should be and very well so, Islamic republic is very unstable and is being lead by a theocracy of dictators it only uses the logic of a few compared to Israel were a whole body is behind the trigger.

As far as terrorizing others is concerned, a democracy where the people do not reason logically and well can easily become genocidal.

Also these threats are different Islamic republic is not defending its soveighrnty, it is not defending it people from territorial attack from neighboring countries, it only wants a bomb so it can get attention from the world and dictate it ways.

Well to dictate its ways it needs to defend the country as well doesn't it?

On the other hand Israel use of deterrence by nuclear threat is very well justified because of it bomb it is able to fend off surrounding countries it is able dictate its right to existence.

At least two issues here:

1. Clearly, it angers people that Israel has nuclear arms. How does this work to defend Israel from violence against its existence? Doesn't violence against its existence make its existence worse?
   
   Why not work towards reconciliation without preconditions and simultaneously de-nuke?
   
2. When you're dealing with power, you run the risk to oppress others. When someone has a nuclear bomb as a deterrent, then you become scared to go against that country even if that country acts unjustly. So that country has an easier time to act unjustly: to allow more settlements, to be more racist, to treat people more harshly. The next debate question here is clearly, doesn't Israel abuse its power of having a nuclear weapon?

majority of the ones i met at random hate hamas and islamic jihad

This hate trickles down to innocent civilians in the form of "collaterial damage". And do they really have a right to hate Hamas and Islamic Jihad- a hate that explicitly causes the loss of innocent life- as opposed to being against their policies?

[zubin]

it is not unjust. or if you see it that way tell me why. But before you give me your opinion consider this, they have truly exsosted the diplomatic fronts,
how many chances did they give to the Palestinians, how many osloes were their when israel held up it promise and their was a daboule face politics with Arafat, Israel has even given weapons, and aids to the PA so it can better govern. After israel and Arafat agreed to educate their people to understand the situation and accept the other side and for Israelis to recognize the PA and for palastinians vice versa. This is evident israel did educate its people most Israelis do want a two state solution most do recognize the PA or atleast they did before hamas. Israelis did this while Arafat was preaching jihad against the Israelis.

To say that a violent act is just, you have to prove that it is the only way. For example, if you have a choice between a violent act and a non-violent act, and both bring about the same result, clearly the non-violent act would be better.

Some people believe that Israel's methods are the only way for defense. This includes the methods of labelling complex and partly community-based organizations as terrorists, and extreme violence and threats for the purpose of deterrence, among other things.

Do you agree that these are the only way?

And that is only because Hezbollah had knowingly hide behind civilians

Actually, there is evidence to suggest that Hezbollah does not do this. The other issue is that Hezbollah is largely community based.

Remember this was after many many pamphlets droped in the are telling people to leave.

What gives them that right? To tell people to leave from their homes and country...

And in regards to the palastinians if the palastinian teen is endangering the soldirs life throwing rocks and creating caos and he dosent adhere to warning and get shot he is no longer collateral casualty he was a neutralized threat.

So the life of an occupying soldier with a technologically-advanced lethal weapon is more important than the life of an oppressed child with a rock?

people don’t go to places if they knowingly hate the population.

Normally they don't, but what's the evidence that Israel did not do this? Can I quote you on your assertion that the European Jews that made Israel were not racist against Muslims?

Many Israelis that I've argued with get around this issue by saying that in fact Muslims are inferior in their culture and that gives Israeli the moral high ground, kind of like the justification for killing American Natives or "Indians".

If you stand on your original point that European Jews were not racist against Muslims before coming to Palestine, we can research the issue....

the same goes for the other side except when you see cartoons and propaganda encouraging hate of Jews and isralis and this is cartoons in countries like Islamic republic and the mideast region.

The question is why do they hate and how can it be reconciled?

You are objective can you tell me in the past how many times the palastinians have cooporated with israelis in the peace process. Or made copremises legitimate compromises,
When the palastinians were about to get the best deal of their life time they refused it.

Both sides have been overly conservative at times, but Israel is the occupier and oppressor against the Palestinians. It is more natural for Palestinians to be more conservative.

they are have a presence in the west bank, in return for the west bank they want security and recognition is that to much to ask for or is that high of a standard.

That's a good goal, but I'm say its too high to ask for this on a silver platter. Palestinians are upset about being displaced by Israelis and it is natural for them to be upset about that and not right away recognize Israel. Time will help, but Israel does not even allow the clock of reconciliation to start due to not negotiating without their preconditions.

They want a guarantee that their kids wont be subject to suicide bombs and that they can pass freely trough out their country with out fearing they will be blown up or attacked because they are Israelis

First of all, its interesting that the end of your sentence has a twist "because they are Israelis". Its not because they are Israelis, its because Israel has forcibly occupied their land and is oppressive. In any case, it would be preferrable for Israel that their kids and women don't die and this is another good goal. How does this relate to negotiations though?

lies it will come around and bite you in the butt like what is happening to the Palestinians, lies wont last. You runawat from facts and reasons but you cant hide( not directed to you just a statement for the palastinians)

Where have the Palestinians lied? And we haven't established that Israel does not lie.

They also have access to a lot of outside media coverage and media something the palastinians don’t have.

Media is usually a tool for misrepresentation of issues and currently undermines global and local democratic processes.

to be objective, to look at the other side. And more importantly the Palestinians need to look with in theme selfs because their condemnation is not because they are Palestinians but because they their culture is messed up.

A culture being "messed up" is a relative term. You must be comparing with someone else. But no comparison is justified because culture goes through natural evolution and just because some have had more opportunities to improve their culture than others doesn't make them better.

Look for isralis to have lasted this long it means they have doing a lot of stuff right.

The reason why Israelis have lasted this long, may last even longer, and their main righteousness, clearly comes from their persecution during the Holocaust. But just because there's one righteous thing doesn't mean they are fully righteous.

The US, Canada, Turkey, Christianity and Islam and many more empires have lasted far longer than Israel and they have done so through not only righteousness, but also genocide.

I am not saying Zionism is perfect but it is not a terrorist mentality.

What's a terrorist mentality. Give me your step by step breakdown of Hamas's mindstate.

Inevitably you'll find righteousness and anger just like Israel. Or no? Please provide me with a better alternative to this view if you don't agree.

Ramin thank you for the opportunity to engage you in this sharing of opinions.
Looking forwared to your response. Please you the qouet process again

No problem... We've clearly advanced the discussion. Many of the disagreements seem researchable and prone to further development and discovery with research evidence from psychology and history.

Everything here is something that can be verified if there is disagreement. I just want to make clear where we disagree before we embark on extra effort and research. For my part, I can take care of bringing the research evidence if we find the clear points of disagreement between us.

This clearly requires an open mind. The law of human nature and that of human progress and discussion requires that, even if you're right, that you explicitly accept the possibility that you might be wrong in case that you are.

If you agree with this last statement and apply it, it will make the rest of the conversation easy and enjoyable while also providing a source of pride for all. Finding the truth, making it more precise and refining it, accepting one's imperfections and vaguenesses in knowledge and language, clearly has great ramifications for the person and the person's future, family and humankind. Though it is not expected that such changes occur in a day, the will to it may be good enough.

Having said all this, this may be the most enjoyed conversation I've ever had, as you have shown many of the above signs. As for me, I beat myself in the head before conversation so that my opinions do not become mere habit and they go under reasoned scrutiny again, even if they are right...

Last thing I would say is if you think you're repeating stuff for me, don't give up. Even if I really didn't give a good reason for not accepting your point, it is human nature that knowledge comes from repetition.

[mike435]

first i want to say how amazing the rational mind is
i promis you many of the things you said in your replies i have heared identicals coming from jews or zionist in discussions at synygog or around the table at an event or seminar and it is amazing how given the oppertunity to engage rationaly we can advance up the later


i also will be honest in that there were things you said that i thoght your counter argument were weak or not valid.

also a lot of the other things you said were for me an acceptable way of looking at the situation and more importantly a new way, but that still dosent mean that i will agree with it because it is a new way or acceptable my own evidance and argumment agaisnt that point could be stronger there for before i abandon my own position i will be wanting more evidance so i will ask you to elaborate. At the same time dont take away that i am closing the door to the posibility that i could be wrong trust me i have been wrong many of times.

.

considering research and authenticity of what i say
a lot of it will be from my own experiances i was in israel for 2 months
i have couzins in the country one is even a special unit officer

thene if i qoate somthing current event it wont even be from jpost it will be most likely from haaretz.com, or cnn

and for historical refrences it is ussualy encyclopedias or books that i have read from authors who are historians that are from both sides. authors like oliver Roy, Tom Segev, i donto know them all oh and biogrophy or auto biogrophy of golde mayer. i really dont remeber all of the books i have read but these are the ones that made the most signifigant impact on me.

also i have taken a good amount of classes regarding the middle east
and have read and wrote about scholarly papers.

also as soon as i get a chance to sit down and write i will respond to your post point by point

last time i went point by point it took me like 45 min also because i didt know how to daboule qouet.

correction i havnt wrote any scholarly papers i have just summerized it.
another author i read was Ali, Tariq. The Clash of Fundamentalisms.

[mike435]

PArt I

Israelis constantly claim superiority to the rest of the middle east in terms of their system, and the US vigorously uses its various powers to further support the same system. These make for a deceptive and cruel justification for forced democracy.

If you agree with this statement then we're clear on this point.

What is deceptive about the system? It is superior to the rest of the middle east, people so get to vote and people in the country do have basic rights the same basic rights are enjoyed by people in the US and mot other western countries. It is a little bit less free compared to US but it is defiantly not deceptive. Also forced democracy on who the israelies? Israel was founded based on Marxist communist ideology and as the country became more diverse it has adjusted and now is a more democratic free market based country. off tangent this shows how communism as good as it is it wont work if people are not united towards the same goal and wont work for a big population just for thoughts. The US does support Israel and so do many other democratic countries in the region because many of their interest go hand in hand. I think it will be the same to once the middle east also becomes democratic. Even though Israel is less free than the US I think it is more reflective of the peoples opinions and concerns. Their multi party system is always crashing a bold sigh that people that disagree their voice is heard and it affects the policies.

The design of the attack is destroying the coherence of the Israeli state and disrupting its existence, not "the targeting off innocent people". They don't sit down and say, ok, lets not care about the Israeli state but instead simply go after innocent people. They say, let's go after the Israeli state, which innocent people are inevitably a part of.
Is there any where you disagree with this statement?

Neither does Hamas. They want to maximize disruption of the Israeli state, which innocent people are a part of.

[mike435]

PART II

You're saying Israeli terror is less terrorizing than Palestinian?

Yes Israeli military options is less terrorizing. It is not systematically targeting Palestinians, it goes after the Hamas, Islamic jihad and other terrorist groups and it goes after theme with all its might. I can see that when tanks and soldiers come in to their town how terrorizing that is but it is still less.

As far as terrorizing others is concerned, a democracy where the people do not reason logically and well can easily become genocidal.

Well to dictate its ways it needs to defend the country as well doesn't it?

At least two issues here:
[LIST=1][*]Clearly, it angers people that Israel has nuclear arms. How does this work to defend Israel from violence against its existence? Doesn't violence against its existence make its existence worse?

Why not work towards reconciliation without preconditions and simultaneously de-nuke?

That kind of an idea for this region is a very romantic one. Especially de-nuke.
How can you do that how can you reconcile with out knowing that what you are doing what you will be giving up wont be a loss.

Remember Israelis will be gamboling their only chip of bargaining and they are gamboling their country. If there are no precondition there is no way of a gurenting a positive result,.
Its like giving an opportunity, would give someone an opportunity if in the past you have seen they cant be trusted no you wont. And the only reason you would give opportunity is if there are markers that show by you giving opportunity you are not risking total loss.