Are Iranians Really Aryans?

[EverGreen]

tu hendi? agar hame jaye hend narafti az koja meeduni? omeedvaram eenja racist bazi nabashe... avalan hendi-ha khoshgel daran, baadam... cheshm aabi maanaye khoshgel budan neest. maskhare-tar az een harf nemeeshod be khoda...

omid varam ke khub zade basham behet.

looooooooooooooooooool

Avalan ke aghaye mike khan bande ba shoma naboodam avalan ba joubin boodam.

age shoma badet miad kasi bahat shookhi kone, manam badam miad ba kasi ke bahash harf nemizanam khodesho bendaze vasat.

dovoman. man kojaye harfi ke zadam racist bazi boode? be farhangesh bi ehterami kardam? be keshverash bi ehterami kardam? ya chi? faghat goftam khoshgel nistan. rast goftam. hala to chera ye ho taasobi shodi? be farzam ke harfe man zedde oona bood be to che marboote? to masalan khodet kheili kelas dari? or what?

badesham age baz too postai ke be to rabti nadare bepari vasat bado birah begi, menbaad injoori ham javab khahi shenid. (ya badtar az in). che khoshet biad che khoshet nayad. har kariam delet mikhad bokon.

[indian_blues]

The real meaning of Aryan

Aryan is not a term to describe race, it is a Cultural term that describes the Vedic Indian way of life. In common usage Aryans are used to refer to Sanskritic Indian, Central Asian and Iranian people becase at ONE TIME they ALL used to be Sanskrit speaking Vedic people, but they then developed their own culture and way of life, deviating from the Vedic Civilization of India and hence lost their 'noble-ness'. By nobleness, I mean just as Romans saw non-Romans as Barbarians the same way Vedic people were a culturally advanced civilization and saw any one who deviated from the path as non-arya or Burbur(The Origin of the word barbarian is 'burbur' from Sanskrit--- burbur means non-sanskrit speaking people)

Aryan" is a derivative of the sanskrit word "Arya" - which means "one of noble acts or deeds" , all the members of the four castes were referred to as "Arya". Any of the ancient hindu books will give you this info. My advice is to read the arthashastra. The term "Aryan" is not german or european by any means.

[mike435]

looooooooooooooooooool

Avalan ke aghaye mike khan bande ba shoma naboodam avalan ba joubin boodam.

age shoma badet miad kasi bahat shookhi kone, manam badam miad ba kasi ke bahash harf nemizanam khodesho bendaze vasat.

dovoman. man kojaye harfi ke zadam racist bazi boode? be farhangesh bi ehterami kardam? be keshverash bi ehterami kardam? ya chi? faghat goftam khoshgel nistan. rast goftam. hala to chera ye ho taasobi shodi? be farzam ke harfe man zedde oona bood be to che marboote? to masalan khodet kheili kelas dari? or what?

badesham age baz too postai ke be to rabti nadare bepari vasat bado birah begi, menbaad injoori ham javab khahi shenid. (ya badtar az in). che khoshet biad che khoshet nayad. har kariam delet mikhad bokon.

evergreen please clarify i did not reply to your comments
and i never called anyone racist i was just suggesting my opion who knows there might be such a thing as "race" but i dont think i was ever "tasobi"
pluse how can i get offended of somthing of i dont belive in
maybe you are referring to a diffrent mike i dono

[donsaeid]

mike everblue to va joubin ro eshtebahi gereft mast karde bode emshab loool
mardom weekend mast mikonan in vasate hafte

[indian_blues]

Humans are from outer space.

Let's close this thread.

[donsaeid]

no! unforunetly! if human were from space, they would have been more intelligence

[EverGreen]

Oops!

Sorry Mike man to ro ba joubin eshtebah gereftam. asab masab nemizaran baraye adam ke.

Sharmande Mike jan.

Adam in saeido mibine inja aslan be kol ghat mizane.

[donsaeid]

ghati bodane khodeto taghsire digaron mindazi sost onsor?

[Rasputin]

این روزها بحث نژادها وبه ویژه نژاد آریا در اینترنت و رسانه های فارسی داغ است و اکثرا با دیدی مثبت و افتخار آمیز به آن نگاه می کنند که به نظر من نتایج فرهنگی و اجتماعیِ زیان آوری برای جامعه ی جوان ایران دارد. اما بحث نژادها در علم کلاسیک چیست و چگونه به آن پرداخته می شود؟ درباره واژه فارسی نژاد و ریشه ومعنی آن از نظر زبان شناسی تا انجا که می دانم در زبان فارسی تحقیقی صورت نگرفته. واژه نژاد در زبان انگلیسی، آلمانی و ایتالیایی نیز مورد بحث است و عده ای معتقدند که از واژه یونانی گرفته شده است. این واژه در زبان یونانی به معنی پیوند بین انسانها در یک شغل یا خانواده می باشد. بعضی دیگر معتقدند که این واژه از کلمه ی عربی راس به معنی سر وارد زبان های اروپایی شده.

بحث نژادها ظاهرا ابتدا با نوشته های داروین و برای طبقه بندی حیواناتی که دارای مشخصه های مشترک هستند وارد علم کلاسیک شد. بعدا در انسان شناسی - علم شناخت انسان ها با توجه به ویژگی های ظاهریشان - این مفهوم برای انسان ها به کار برده شد. اوایل قرن گذشته در دانشگاههای آمریکا و آلمان تحقیقات بسیار زیادی در زمینه تقسیم بندی انسان ها بر اساس مشترکات ظاهری بدن آنها انجام گرفت. اما با پیشرفت علم و کشفیات باستانشناسی مشخص شد که این تحقیقات چندان قابل استناد نیست. مثلا امروزه می دانیم که کل انسان ها حدود پنج میلیون سال پیش از گروه کوچکی در آفریقا منشعب شده اند. یا اینکه رنگ تیره پوست ساکنان آفریقا یا مناطق گرمسیر را نمی توان به جدایی بر اساس نژاد نسبت داد زیرا با گذشت زمان ژن هایی که مقاومت پوست را در مقابل آفتاب بالا می برند موجب تیرگی رنگ پوست گشته و بعد از چند نسل این خصوصیات اکتسابی به خصوصیات ژنتیکی تبدیل شده و به فرزندان منتقل می شود. در پی این کشفیات بود که پونسکو پیشنهاد کرد به جای واژه نژاد از اصطلاح گروههای قومی استفاده شود.

از نظر علمی نودونه و نه دهم درصد از انسان ها از نظر ژنتیکی به هم شباهت دارند. یک دهم درصدی که به تفاوت ها مربوط می شود، به رنگ پوست و شکل ظاهری بدن مرتبط است. ولی از همان قرن هیجده و نوزده میلادی اصطلاحی به نام ایدئولوژی نژادی پدید آمد که معتقدان به آن - بدون اینکه تعریفی قانع کننده از کلمه نژاد ارائه دهند-نژاد خود را از سایرین برتر می دانستند.

آیا نژاد آریا وجود دارد؟ حتی اگر هم بخواهیم تعاریف نه چندان دقیق قرن هجدهم و نوزدهم میلادی را ملاک قرار دهیم، باز به دلیل اطلاعات کمی که از آریایی ها داریم نمی توان از آنها تحت عنوان نژاد یاد کرد.مثلا نمی دانیم که آنها دقیقا از چه منطقه جغرافیایی آمده اند، آیا زبان مشترکی داشته اند و آیا از نظر ژنتیکی با دیگر انسانها متفاوت بوده اند. همه ی مطالبی هم که در این مورد توسط محققان نوشته شده نظریات هستند. امروزه با رد شدن نظریه نژادها در علم مردمشناسی دستکم در محافل علمی از اصطلاح نژاد آریا استفاده نمی شود.

آیا افتخار کردن به آریایی ها موجب برتری ما می شود؟ هر جامعه ای دارای هویت تاریخی ست و تجزیه و تحلیل این هویت بیشتر راهگشاست تا افتخار به آن. وقتی که از وقایع تاریخی نتایج ملموس بیرون کشیده و آن نتایج را در تصمیمات جمعی خود دخالت دهیم، احتمال اشتباهات کمتر می شود. اما افتخار کورکورانه به چیزی که اصلا نمی دانیم درست یا اشتباه است، فقط به این منجر خواهد شد که جوامع و فرهنگ های دیگر را تحقیر کنیم. کسی که خود را از نسل آریا و دیگران را غیر آریایی می بیند، عرب ها را هم سوسمارخور لقب می دهد، افغان ها را وحشی می خواند و سیاهپوستان را آدم به حساب نمی آورد. وقتی هم که مسابقه فوتبال آلمانی ها را نگاه می کند به بازیکنانش با سلام هیتلری ادای احترام می کند. نیم قرن پیش هیتلر و دارودسته اش با سوءاستفاده از چنین تفکراتی آتش جنگی را شعله ور ساختند که در نهایت به نابودی خودشان و میلیونها انسان دیگر منتهی شد. متاسفانه این دیدگاه در جامعه ما فراگیر شده است و به نظرم یک علتش بی اطلاعی تلویزیون های لوس آنجلسی از تاریخ است.

شاید روزی همه انسانها این واقعیت را بپذیرند که کسی به خاطر زبان یا رنگ پوستش بر دیگران ارجحیت ندارد و ملاک برتری انسانها را چیزِ دیگری قرار دهند.

[Rasputin]

Any individual belonging to a nation, people, or group (as he/she would identify) would normally wonder about the past, the present, and the future of his/her identity. Iran is a wonderful country in the sense that it is full of diversity, hence beauty, and full of many complexities, but also full of backwardness that cannot be ignored. These are realities due to Iran's historical and geographic circumstances.

There are indeed many who identify themselves as proud Iranians who would get angry for calling Iran a backward country, or even to associate Iran with the neighbourhood. They would argue that Iran is unique, great, and notably different from not just its peers but also from the rest of the world. And to prove this, the so-called Persian/Iranian nationalists (not calling them racists is just being nice) would proudly identify and associate themselves with Aryans, with no reserves at all, openly and arrogantly. Clear sign of backwardness! No further proof is needed. No further comment is needed. And in case, one, like me, would dare to question the legitimacy and diplomacy (is it okay in today's world to bring words about such a dodgy identity that has been buried by Westerners more than half a century ago?!) of such a popular stance, these proud Aryans would not hesitate to attack.

This may not seem a serious problem for some, but it is a serious problem for many. The identification of a nation is the first and the most important step for moving forward toward the future. People suffer from, or enjoy, the results of their leaders' actions or policies for generations to come. There have been great leaders whose legacies have not veined and offer little clues of veining any time soon. Examples are aplenty. Prophet Mohammad is one of history's greatest leaders whose legacy has changed the world, and is still changing. Jesus is another example.

And it is not just the prophets. Peter the Great of Russia has left Russians the most important legacy of any other Russian ever since or before. Hitler is one of history's most remarkable leaders whose legacy is no longer present in Germany's mainstream. But that does not mean there is no legacy left. Although it is arguable, and although we cannot credit Hitler with inventing the idea about Aryan supremacy, he was indeed history's most significant leader who promoted Aryanism heavily, and who influenced and inspired other leaders too.

One result of Hitler's legacy has been that the West, once the greatest fan of eugenics, and yes, the Aryan supremacy (Britons and many other Christian nations were no less fans of the Aryan race) stopped mentioning about Aryans or Aryanism after World War II. The other result, although mainly unknown to the West, has been the promotion of Aryanism in such unexpected corners of the world (unexpected for Westerners) such as Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and also India. Afghanistan's airlines is named Ariana, and Iran's Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi named himself Aryamehr. Although officials or individuals within these nations, especially Iran, would have often tried to dissociate themselves from Hitler's more aggressive Aryanism it is indeed interesting to understand why these nations have promoted and still do promote themselves as Aryans (either officially or as simple citizens) if they do not believe in the Aryan supremacy that used to be promoted by Westerners before the second World War?

I don't see other peoples talking about race anymore. And in case you are wondering about Iranians talk about race you can simply consult the worldwide web. It is all over blogs, and even Wikipedia is full of Iranians (or others in the region such as Afghans) still promoting their Aryan identity. For those who are less Internet-addicted, Wikipedia is a type of encyclopedia that is edited by all Internet users and the outcomes of what can be seen on Wikipedia is usually what users can agree upon (usually using non-Wiki sources).

Iran's and Iranians' identity is indeed largely based on what they see as Iranians being Aryans. And this is, by association, a legacy of Hitler, through Reza Shah Pahlavi. It is not to say that either Hitler, or Reza Shah, invented the ideology. They were leaders who just used them and promoted them. Hitler's legacy died out (largely, not entirely of course) in the Christian world, though his legacy lives on well within not-so-blond Aryans of the Middle East. And this is indeed backwardness, at least by half a century (probably far more).

This is not the first time I am writing about this subject. There are two subjects that arouse Aryan/Iranian/Persian nationalism more than any other. One is about the glory of Iran's pre-Islamic imperialism, and the other is about Iran's glorious racial identity, the Aryan race. None of which are anything to be proud of. This is probably funny for many non-Iranians to read, but it is less funny when you are an Iranian and see so many of these folks. Especially when you are an Iranian Turk/Azeri who has been fed all over the place with the stupidest idea ever that you (the Turk, Azeri or whoever may think he/she is not Aryan... such a racial blasphemy), poor little you, are no less glorious, pure and supreme as us, but you have just been a bit less fortunate, a bit less inspired, and somewhat idiotic, and have fallen victim to a historical tragedy.

And what is that tragedy? The tragedy has been that you (the Turk/Azeri) have changed your language from an Aryan language to a non-Aryan language (Persian and similar languages are supposed to be Aryan), but you are still an Aryan, racially. How do you prove I am an Aryan, racially? Well, that's something you don't ask! Aryans don't have any established way of identification. It is almost like a fanatical religion, or other type of ideology, just like it used to be in Europe, though with not that physical aggressivity (yet).

This is just a simple example of a Middle-Eastern style stupidity that may seem out-of-date and quite hilarious to Westerners, but is much less of a fun when you are a part of it, within it, though not exactly it. It is possible that in case I (and others like me) was also a Persian Iranian I would not have given much attention to this Aryan ideology or policy. Thus I do reserve my due subjectivity in regards to the issue.

It would be very fortunate and welcome for the whole Iran, and Iranians, to have a change in discourse and put aside any mentioning of race, for the sake of not alienating, and also for the sake of moving forward within a modern world in which values have indeed moved on, in the right direction (though never perfect). However the reality is usually less idealistic and it is more likely to see more of the same until there would be some new leader, or leaders, who would inspire better ways of gaining confidence (by tolerance, hard work and cooperation rather than suppression and empty arrogance).

[reza-george]

I have heard that Iranians are Aryans. All though this thread has been something to consider.

[zubin]

looooooooooooooooooool

Avalan ke aghaye mike khan bande ba shoma naboodam avalan ba joubin boodam.

age shoma badet miad kasi bahat shookhi kone, manam badam miad ba kasi ke bahash harf nemizanam khodesho bendaze vasat.

dovoman. man kojaye harfi ke zadam racist bazi boode? be farhangesh bi ehterami kardam? be keshverash bi ehterami kardam? ya chi? faghat goftam khoshgel nistan. rast goftam. hala to chera ye ho taasobi shodi? be farzam ke harfe man zedde oona bood be to che marboote? to masalan khodet kheili kelas dari? or what?

badesham age baz too postai ke be to rabti nadare bepari vasat bado birah begi, menbaad injoori ham javab khahi shenid. (ya badtar az in). che khoshet biad che khoshet nayad. har kariam delet mikhad bokon.

badet beeyad, mohem neest. areh een racisme vaghti meegi yek race zeshte. va een nazare toe faghat. to hend nabudi nemeeduni che shekliyan, va har shekli ke dar amreka daran een deedgahe aghab oftadeye toe ke meetune bege "hamashun zeshtan".

maloome narahat meeshe. iraniye racist eenjuri deedam ke hendiharo narahat kone. ba een harfet kheyli az irani-ha ro ham narahat meekoni. yek daleelesh eene ke iranihaii hast ke ya doost ha hamsare hendi dare. yadame yeki mesle to tu jame joloye yek dokhtare kheyli khube irani ke shohare hendiye kheyli khubi dasht ham cheen chizi goft... nemeeduni cheghadr narahat shod...

dalili ke azash defa meekonam eene ke man meedunam narahat meeshe vali enghad arume ke chizi nemeege.

be nazare man nabayad be man tohin meekardi. to vaghti ba baghye tohin shoru meekoni, haghete ke yeki ham be to tohin kone.

[Rasputin]

This has very often been my wondering. Why am I an Iranian? Does it mean anything? For some, me among them, Iran has not brought enough of a good, so we have left that country. However we are still Iranians and some of us, me among them, feel we have at least some duty toward our people or our homeland, so we normally try to make things better for our people. However good, or better, mean different things for different people.

Is Iran associated with a race? Is Iran associated with an ethnicity or nationality? Are non-Persian Iranians minority groups or is Persian simply a common language and being Persian has no other meaning but to have been born luckier to have less difficulties at school etc?

There are many currents of opinion among Iranians. One which I stongly disagree with is the following:

IRANIANS ARE A NATION DEFINED BY THEIR ARYAN RACE AND HERITAGE, THE GLORIOUS PRE-ISLAMIC PERSIAN EMPIRE, AND (UNSPOKEN BUT WELL UNDERSTOOD) SUPERIORITY TOWARD THE WHOLE NEIGHBOURHOOD.

The above definition has been promoted ever since the Pahlavi took over and it has been so much loved and cherished by most of the Persians (the ethnic Persians) who found themselves in the posture of belonging to a proud race (belonging to the race of the northern Europeans... though nothing can be dodgier) but with even greater and older history. However the same definition has been the worste nightmare of some other Iranians, quite many actually, and here I am referring to the Azeri/Turks, who are some 1/4 or Iranians (me too). Persian Iranians may find this very strange but the fact is that non-Persian Iranians are first what they are, then they are Iranians. Persian Iranians often confuse being Iranian with being Persian. For instance, the pre-Islamic Persian Empire is not one to which Azerbaijan had any contribution but in which it was just a province. The pre-Islamic Persian Empire was the empire of the Persians (who were ruling it). So many peoples belonged to that empire but they were not Persians. It's a bit confusing, but I cannot say that the Persian Empire of pre-Islam has any personal representation for becasue I don't feel connected to it, just like non-Italians of the old Roman Empire don't feel connected to the Roman Empire at all. However I do feel connected to the Safavid-to-Qajar Iran (bad or good) becasue that Iran, just before the Pahlavi, was not an Iran of a race (we have already talked about the ills of defininf the Aryan race, it simply does not exist) or a language but a confederation of nations. The Pahlavi Iran though was different. And the Iran of today has no such official ideology about race but its policies are not much different from those of the Pahlavi because of the practised chauvinism and assimilation.

Let's have a productive debate, in case it is technically possible, and see what fellow Iranians think!

Looking forward for messages froim fellow Iranians and others