Human Rights in Iran

[Inquisitor]

You do not know Islam azizam, you only know what has been thought to you at school or by your parents...but you do not know the intent behind this ever clear and present danger called Islam.

Now I have said it before and I say it now, this Islam has nothing to do with the original message came down in the original Ghoran...for that you need to ask the Magis...too long and too complicated.

Say Islam is evil, but don't say it is different! In other words, don't teach us what it is!

[Rasputin]

Hoghugh-e bashar hich vaght nemitavanad senkhiatt ba eslam dashteh bashad.

In eslam hast keh daem az sangsar va kafar koshi va marg va jang harf mizanad.

Akheh in cheh mazhabieh keh hamash bayad adam kosht va shalagh bala sar-e adam gozasht !!!!! 100 sal-e siad Iran ehtiaj beh in chiz ha nadareh ! beh zoudi-e zoud mardom-e iran hagheshan ra khahad gereft az kasani keh ba eslam khun-e baghieh ra rikhtehand.

Har ki eslam mikhad ya beshineh tuy-e khunash va beh kasi kari nadashteh bashad ya bereh Yemen or Arabia Saudi,unjaha ta akhar-e omresh pa beh pay-e eslam pir shavad.Mozahem-e azadi-e ma va zendegi ma nashid .

[zubin]

سلام

سپاس از گفتارت که منطقی بود
As far as I know you are among the very few people in this community that doesn't copy/paste useless articles and give childish comments. For that I appreciate.

Khahesh meekonam. Hopefully any potentially different views about philosophical discourse will not impede discussion. As the ancient Socrates promoted, I'm a believer in finding ultimate truth through discussion (though we use tradition and text as aids, as they are open to interpretation and require discussion).

“right” in many languages both means correct or true as well as opposite of left which has no relation to the word حق in Quran.
Human rights cannot be translated as حقوق بشر in Parsi because these are the rights and not حقوق.

one's "hagh" is translated to one's "right". English words have different meanings in different contexts, and that is what is confusing you. But "right" in English is used the same way as "hagh" in Farsi.

It means any group of people may declare and decide what is wrong or right based on what they think, therefore It does not mean that before the declaration there was no حقوق .

That is not true about the meaning of "right" in English. I mentioned that there is a "natural rights" perspective in the West which believes that rights exist a priori, prior to rational analysis. This perspective is at least merged with other perspectives in modern international and western discourse.

In Islam, we have no such a thing, we believe in absolute حقوق and it cannot be challenged by any declaration, yet tomorrow this “human rights” can be changed, some of them can be added and some even be removed from it, based on values of that group of people. For example child abortion & ... .

Peeshghezavat nakoneed ke hoghughe bashar dar kharej ba hoghughe bashar dar Islam kheyli fargh darad. Dar Islam ghavaneeni hast ke ejazeye abortion meedahad, va be een khatar na dar Islam na dar kharej abortion motlaghan bar alayhe hoghughe bashar ast. Vali mohemtar... sue tafahom eenjast:

The application of human rights in the west does not make reference to the "essence" or "source" of human rights. But it DOES incorporate the perspective of a priori rights. Therefore, it does not negate the Islamic perspective. It is simply dealing with the universal fact that one must decide between two competing people's rights. This also exists in Islam. To clarify further:

"Avaz shodane" hoghughe bashar dar gharb be een maana neest ke khode hoghughe bashar avaz meeshe. Be een maana hast ke sharayet avaz meeshe, va sharayet ba es meeshe ke tasmeem dar baraye hagho hoghugh avaz beshe. Islam magar eentor neest Inquisitor jaan?

You do not know Islam azizam, you only know what has been thought to you at school or by your parents...but you do not know the intent behind this ever clear and present danger called Islam.

Now I have said it before and I say it now, this Islam has nothing to do with the original message came down in the original Ghoran...for that you need to ask the Magis...too long and too complicated.

Say Islam is evil, but don't say it is different! In other words, don't teach us what it is!

Why can't one define Islam or religion and say "what it is"? Why can't one understand Islam through logic and art?

Perhaps one can take a view against certain interpretations of Islam as opposed to others. People have always done this even within Islam.

[Dokhtar Bandari]

Say Islam is evil, but don't say it is different! In other words, don't teach us what it is!

[Inquisitor]

Hoghugh-e bashar hich vaght nemitavanad senkhiatt ba eslam dashteh bashad.

In eslam hast keh daem az sangsar va kafar koshi va marg va jang harf mizanad.

Akheh in cheh mazhabieh keh hamash bayad adam kosht va shalagh bala sar-e adam gozasht !!!!! 100 sal-e siad Iran ehtiaj beh in chiz ha nadareh ! beh zoudi-e zoud mardom-e iran hagheshan ra khahad gereft az kasani keh ba eslam khun-e baghieh ra rikhtehand.

Har ki eslam mikhad ya beshineh tuy-e khunash va beh kasi kari nadashteh bashad ya bereh Yemen or Arabia Saudi,unjaha ta akhar-e omresh pa beh pay-e eslam pir shavad.Mozahem-e azadi-e ma va zendegi ma nashid .

[Inquisitor]

Responding Zubin
با درودی دوباره
منظورت را فهمیدم


سقط جنین را بر خیال سالم بودن بچه گذاشتم
For example, child abortion is considered the right of the woman and yet where is the right of the infant being murdered, just because he/she cannot defend itself so it is ignored.
I know Islamic view regarding abortion.
-----

What I meant was that charter can be changed/remove over a period of time.
If there is a human right one should define it in absolute. No absolute truth exists! (All is relative) Opposes the idea that God is absolute! In essence this is making relativity absolute! Logic has spheres and it does not have absolute authority on universe.

About حقوق, I wasn't confused, It's an Arabic word. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

I pretty much agree with rest of your post.

va sharayet ba es meeshe ke tasmeem dar baraye hagho hoghugh avaz beshe. Islam magar eentor neest Inquisitor jaan?

Manzour az Sharayet chiyeh? Baradar harfe 1400 sal e pish e Khoda sedgh mikoneh ta hamisheh, Zaman nemishnaseh (Albateh faghat az didgah e Mosalmanan) Maybe I didn't understand you regarding this issue, please explain it more.

[zubin]

Manzour az Sharayet chiyeh? Baradar harfe 1400 sal e pish e Khoda sedgh mikoneh ta hamisheh, Zaman nemishnaseh (Albateh faghat az didgah e Mosalmanan) Maybe I didn't understand you regarding this issue, please explain it more.

Agha, what I am saying is that the 'right', the 'hagh', can be interpreted as absolute in the West as well, and that it works the same way as in Islam.

In both systems the "hagh" can be seen as absolute. It is that in both systems, the question of whether the hagh is in need for being given depends on the circumstances.

An example is that in the west, historically, the male has had control over his wife's rights. For instance, England only made raping one's wife illegal 20 years ago. The fact that more rights have been given to women today, does not mean that a new right has been "created". The right has been exercised only because of the fact that women were being abused at home. Once they found out women were being abused, they said women deserve their right a little more.

Eentor neest ke, masalan, haghe zanan dar gharb "ekhtera" shod- Hameeshe vojud dashte, faghat alan sharayet neshun meede ke on hagh bayad beeshtar dade beshavad. Mesle Islam, hagh absolute hast, faghat alan meebeenan ke, be khatere sharayet, bayad beeshtar dade beshavad.

About حقوق, I wasn't confused, It's an Arabic word.

I know that it comes from Arabic, but now that its in our language, it is a Farsi word, with a distinct lexicon than the original. There are ofcourse persianized elements to the meaning of hoghugh.

[Inquisitor]

Responding Dokhtar Bandari

lol You did copy/paste few lines from wikipedia and came to the conclusion that Allah (swt) is not absolute.

If I say Khodaye Yekta is absolute, would your problem be solved? or are you absolutely no absolutist ?

Are you afraid of something?

I am hidden under my tongue

You and your kind have taught my nation useless words and blasphemous prayers for eons...now you tell me not to say what I want? I think you need to go and re-evaluate your input here.

It was my brothers who defended the country that you are so proud of during the imposed war. You can find many videos online.

Are you saying that your God that you so believe in and as you say are ready to die for is so weak that he can not take care of unbelievers himself? Is your God so illusive that he can not show mercy and justice to children and the weak whom you so are ready to eliminate for their lack of believe in your gibberish understanding of the One eternal intelligent designer of life? If your Allah as you believe him to be God, is so knowing why would he create diversity of Race; Color; Creed; Sex; Sexual orientation; National Origin; ancestry; Religion; Disability; Familial Status; and so on and so forth..if he knew it was going to cause a conflict...therefore your Allah is not all knowing. If your Allah is so just and merciful (besmelaheh rahmane' rahim), then why its people are so unforgiving and shrewd? because he is not just and merciful. If your Allah is "Allah o Akbar" then why are his followers amongst poorest, sickest and uneducated? because he is not so Akbar. You have been brainwashed...start questioning your motives and fate. Start to love others instead of hating them for what you are and they are not...but you can't do that..can you? because you are so drowned in false believes it has drawn you away from true God. You did not give us life...so what makes you think you have a right to take it away???????

Be a muslim, believe in what you want, but don't shove it down anyone else's' throat. Your days in Iran are numbered, mark my word and start counting. The new Iran shall not be built on blood shed but shall be a symbol of freedom from the real "Absolute". Where every Man has a right to the very life that God has provided us with. Where humanity lives under the Laws of God not the twisted rules of Man. Freedom, justice, mercy and life full of good cheers are the creed we shall live in

You have a belief and by necessity anyone who believes in anything must oppose that which is against his/her belief. You cannot tolerate what we do and we cannot tolerate what you do.
But beliefs do not exist just in individuals, people form societies based on what the majority beliefs are. In a liberal society a Muslim minority cannot practice their beliefs to the full extent, only as an individual in their own personal space! any ideology that wishes to become practical and manifest in the world, has a vision. A vision of a utopia! You cannot build two houses in one portion of land at the same time and so you cannot build two societies based on two different plans, just as you cannot have boiling water and iced water in one time and place.

[Inquisitor]

Eentor neest ke, masalan, haghe zanan dar gharb "ekhtera" shod- Hameeshe vojud dashte, faghat alan meebeenan ke on hagh bayad dade beshavad. Mesle Islam, hagh absolute hast, faghat alan meebeenan ke, be khatere sharayet, bayad dade beshavad.

Baradar, Manzouret ro fahmidam, vali agar ham besourat e absolute ma3ni beshe dar gharb baz ham dar tazadde ba Eslam e.

Bakhatereh che sharayeti ?

Edit: By the way, If you got my PM, there are some audio/videos about human rights in Iran. Please listen if you have time.

[mike435]

Firt off i want to applude all of you guys for your superb participation
i think this has been one of the best dialouge on the forum
bravo
the entire read for me was a mental orgasam

anyways cant wait to read some more

[mike435]

you know to be honest inqusiter i think alot of your arguments are flwaed and in complete
even thoug you are very articulate the stuff you say contridiqtory

for example you talk about choice wether it be the infant or the mother
and how this whole world is a test of choice

yet isnt islam taking that choice away from people.

and regarding

You have a belief and by necessity anyone who believes in anything must oppose that which is against his/her belief. You cannot tolerate what we do and we cannot tolerate what you do.
But beliefs do not exist just in individuals, people form societies based on what the majority beliefs are. In a liberal society a Muslim minority cannot practice their beliefs to the full extent, only as an individual in their own personal space! any ideology that wishes to become practical and manifest in the world, has a vision. A vision of a utopia! You cannot build two houses in one portion of land at the same time and so you cannot build two societies based on two different plans, just as you cannot have boiling water and iced water in one time and place.

you are wrong look muslims in america are living free and very happy
and i am willing to bet they can more freely practice islam in america and eurpean countrys than in the dictatorship of middle easts

also what you say is very trabouling you just said that observent muslims cant live in western countrys and wont get along

so what is the solution to kick theme out or submit to theme and have my choice taken away

anyways man over all dokhtar irooni and zubin make the most sence
their is alot less conterdiction in waht they say

and regarding redwine, yea man his right you should not block people if you dont like what they are saying thats is just low

[Inquisitor]

you know to be honest inqusiter i think alot of your arguments are flwaed and in complete
even thoug you are very articulate the stuff you say contridiqtory

It's just we have different points of view not really a contradiction, but care to explain?

BTW, Ghavaed va Emlat behtar shodeh. Your grammar and spellings have improved a lot, keep up the good work.

for example you talk about choice wether it be the infant or the mother

I said this in Parsi سقط جنین را بر خیال سالم بودن بچه گذاشتم
Seght e Janin ro bar khiyal e salem boudan e Bacheh gozashtan.

and how this whole world is a test of choice

yet isnt islam taking that choice away from people.

Very good question indeed! Who are these people? Tell me can one billion Muslims have the right to govern at least a single country on this earth according to what they believe? Or must you crusade and liberate them according to your belief? If your values are so true and universal and you have no doubt then logically you must cleanse earth of all ignorance. But remember even Islam does not approve of global conquest by the means of military intervention. We know belief can be forced physically but not mentally and so there is no compulsion in religion, but this does not mean a Muslim country should abandon its beliefs. If you think you can turn Muslim people into liberals through invading their countries you have failed in understanding that mind and ideas are not conquered physically.

and regarding

you are wrong look muslims in america are living free and very happy
and i am willing to bet they can more freely practice islam in america and eurpean countrys than in the dictatorship of middle easts

also what you say is very trabouling you just said that observent muslims cant live in western countrys and wont get along

so what is the solution to kick theme out or submit to theme and have my choice taken away

Read my post again, I said "a Muslim minority cannot practice their beliefs to the full extent"
For examples, punishment for Homosexuals, paedophile ... .

anyways man over all dokhtar irooni and zubin make the most sence
their is alot less conterdiction in waht they say

It is the physiological method of perception eventhough that you are not agree with them 100%, there would always be a possibility for collision.

Wassalam

[Rasputin]

http://www.tapesh.com/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,10/

I just saw this thread, you threatened "Qalibaf's" internet anonymity to be shown to others. Don't abuse your Mod-status, Strike us intellectually.

مخصوصا به فارسي مينويسم براي اينكه مجدا برداشت بد از صحبتهاي بنده نشود.

اسلام و بقيه اديان هيچ گونه محلي براي حقوق بشر نگذاشتند.شاهد كلام بنده ، خواندن تاريخ است و بس.



در رابطه با ديگر اعضاي اين فروم خواهشمندم اظهار نظر نكنيد چون شما نه از قضيه با خبر هستيد و نه نقشي ديگر جز عضويت داريد

.موفق با شيد.

[Rasputin]

A Note By MOD To All Users

Please respect to the all users and read again our rules in http://www.tapesh.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11459 .

Next time,i will give ''warning'' to who doesn't respect us.

Thank you for your attention.

[Inquisitor]

مخصوصا به فارسي مينويسم براي اينكه مجدا برداشت بد از صحبتهاي بنده نشود.

اسلام و بقيه اديان هيچ گونه محلي براي حقوق بشر نگذاشتند.شاهد كلام بنده ، خواندن تاريخ است و بس.

It's not history, but a forging one. You do copy/paste articles without a source from bias websites. If your intention is really to know Islam, I can provide you links from sublime institutions or authentic universities. 1400 years of history to back it up and libraries full of books. Underestimate if you wish but that would be naive or you are full of hate.

Wassalam