Hassan Abbasi

[mike435]

your history is weak! beyol nahrein was always a harmonical place! all science and civilization comes from middleeast!

they come from iran and persian empire big diffrance


after conquest of islam it continues but it was monstly persians
most of the big arabic names i have looked up were persian scinticte.

saed i am not a historian
but based on most of my reading there was allways alot of killing going on

look my whole point is that
killing goes on regardless of what is there or not there
the middle was not harmonious
wasnt islam that broght some order and unity in the region by eliminating other things (the leaders i mean)

[mike435]

A Empire is destroyed easier from inside! so they put the worm inside!

i agree with most of it but commone man

dont you think the reason that islam did not conqure europe was becuase
the church in europe which had huge influence both financial and on the people

also dont you think technology played a big amount
and offcourse the age on enlightend ment

you cant keep baliming others.
when you say worm that dosent make sence
becuase you go and try to convert a devout muslim to somthing else it is imposible
so how could a third party install a diffrent idiology

[donsaeid]

you dony install a new ideology! you change ideology existing! look usa! no third party is a big deal in elections!

Read History well and see also now time! Europe always has unstablized Middleeast to use their resourses and stragetic place to their emperialism!

[Inquisitor]

When Someone declears war against you ofcourse you use every mean but you have try to not harm civil population!

Did Abbasi said anything different of what you just said ?

Nagof keh Khoshounat alayhe mardoman e bi gonah.

Holy book and holy Prophet has said that my rules for you are for time now! Holy Book asks us to change! to Think

Can you provide me the verses from Quran.

The Quran is the same, the Sunnah is the same. What is the change? It's the change of environment.

Ma bayad khodeman ro tatbigh bedim be oun zaman va mohit according to those laws. Those laws cannot be changed or reformed.

[Inquisitor]

Donsaeid, What school of thought you follow ? It would be easier for me to prove my points.

[donsaeid]

The Quran is the same, the Sunnah is the same. What is the change? It's the change of environment.

Ma bayad khodeman ro tatbigh bedim be oun zaman va mohit according to those laws. Those laws cannot be changed or reformed.

You are shia! shia did reform islam! im sunni! and we follow sunna of Holy Prophet!

Problem with this things is that people dont see it as they are said not as people translate it to their own agenda!



Surah 51. The Winnowing Winds


1. By the (Winds) that scatter broadcast;

2. And those that lift and bear away heavy weights;

3. And those that flow with ease and gentleness;

4. And those that distribute and apportion by Command;-

5. Verily that which ye are promised is true;

6. And verily Judgment and Justice must indeed come to pass.

7. By the Sky with (its) numerous Paths,

8. Truly ye are in a doctrine discordant,

9. Through which are deluded (away from the Truth) such as would be deluded.

10. Woe to the falsehood-mongers,-

11. Those who (flounder) heedless in a flood of confusion:

12. They ask, "When will be the Day of Judgment and Justice?"

13. (It will be) a Day when they will be tried (and tested) over the Fire!

14. "Taste ye your trial! This is what ye used to ask to be hastened!"

15. As to the Righteous, they will be in the midst of Gardens and Springs,

16. Taking joy in the things which their Lord gives them, because, before then, they lived a good life.

17. They were in the habit of sleeping but little by night,

18. And in the hour of early dawn, they (were found) praying for Forgiveness;

19. And in their wealth and possessions (was remembered) the right of the (needy,) him who asked, and him who (for some reason) was prevented (from asking).

20. On the earth are signs for those of assured Faith,

21. As also in your own selves: Will ye not then see?

22. And in heaven is your Sustenance, as (also) that which ye are promised.

23. Then, by the Lord of heaven and earth, this is the very Truth, as much as the fact that ye can speak intelligently to each other.

24. Has the story reached thee, of the honoured guests of Abraham?

25. Behold, they entered his presence, and said: "Peace!" He said, "Peace!" (and thought, "These seem) unusual people."

26. Then he turned quickly to his household, brought out a fatted calf,

27. And placed it before them.. he said, "Will ye not eat?"

28. (When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge.

29. But his wife came forward (laughing) aloud: she smote her forehead and said: "A barren old woman!"

30. They said, "Even so has thy Lord spoken: and He is full of Wisdom and Knowledge."

31. (Abraham) said: "And what, O ye Messengers, is your errand (now)?"

32. They said, "We have been sent to a people (deep) in sin;-

33. "To bring on, on them, (a shower of) stones of clay (brimstone),

34. "Marked as from thy Lord for those who trespass beyond bounds."

35. Then We evacuated those of the Believers who were there,

36. But We found not there any just (Muslim) persons except in one house:

37. And We left there a Sign for such as fear the Grievous Penalty.

38. And in Moses (was another Sign): Behold, We sent him to Pharaoh, with authority manifest.

39. But (Pharaoh) turned back with his Chiefs, and said, "A sorcerer, or one possessed!"

40. So We took him and his forces, and threw them into the sea; and his was the blame.

41. And in the 'Ad (people) (was another Sign): Behold, We sent against them the devastating Wind:

42. It left nothing whatever that it came up against, but reduced it to ruin and rottenness.

43. And in the Thamud (was another Sign): Behold, they were told, "Enjoy (your brief day) for a little while!"

44. But they insolently defied the Command of their Lord: So the stunning noise (of an earthquake) seized them, even while they were looking on.

45. Then they could not even stand (on their feet), nor could they help themselves.

46. So were the People of Noah before them for they wickedly transgressed.

47. With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

48. And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!

49. And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

50. Hasten ye then (at once) to Allah. I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open!

51. And make not another an object of worship with Allah. I am from Him a Warner to you, clear and open!

52. Similarly, no apostle came to the Peoples before them, but they said (of him) in like manner, "A sorcerer, or one possessed"!

53. Is this the legacy they have transmitted, one to another? Nay, they are themselves a people transgressing beyond bounds!

54. So turn away from them: not thine is the blame.

55. But teach (thy Message) for teaching benefits the Believers.

56. I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.

57. No Sustenance do I require of them, nor do I require that they should feed Me.

58. For Allah is He Who gives (all) Sustenance,- Lord of Power,- Steadfast (for ever).

59. For the Wrong-doers, their portion is like unto the portion of their fellows (of earlier generations): then let them not ask Me to hasten (that portion)!

60. Woe, then, to the Unbelievers, on account of that Day of theirs which they have been promised!


When you read this sura you see that The Almighty used different words, different means, different lows, different miracles and different persons to come through to people for saving them

he is lord of power! he who gives all!

so it is a insult to say that he doesnt have new means for new situations!

there werent pollution on that time! there werent atomic bomb on that time!

but all about that is in Quran! but you have to find them!

in religion forum i think we have thread about miracles of Quran and that every day we find new things discribed in holy book!

So we have to find that hidden helps which are in holy book! and use them!

He gave us seratal mostaghim and in that serat he gave us eyes, ears, brain and heart! to develop and become muslims! (submitted to him!) it doesnt means we have to just eat "khorma" and ride on Camels!

[Inquisitor]

Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! they are nothing but tales of the ancients!" (Al-Mumenoon [The Believers] verse 83)

In 10 different places Quran refers to people who say it is “Ancient Tales” or even Tales of no significant.

These are the chapters (Sura) and the verses (Ayat):

006.025
008.031
016.024
023.083
025.005
027.068
031.006
046.017
068.015
083.013

What do we understand from this?

We understand that 1400 years ago when it was revealed, people already had heard of previous religions and at the time they thought to be modern comparing to their ancestors.

We also understand that it is predicted in Qu’ran that people will think of it as Old Tales!

Today we drive in our cars, we play computer games and we talk over mobile phones, yet we are the same men that existed 1400 years ago, we need to eat, sleep, think… We also can lie, kill, steal, love, hate…

What has changed about humanity? Nothing fundamental, we are still humans and all those rules apply even today.

Reform is good for a flawed system, Qur’an is not flawed! (NOT FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN IT)


The verses that you provided proves nothing, absolutely nothing. Only give me one single Aya, only ONE.

Your example of Khorma and camel proves nothing too. That's not reform, that's science, Quran encourage us to improve in sciece.

shia did reform islam!

As a Shia, I strongly reject such a claim.

Also Imam Shafeyi described it very nicely to a man that why Islam is perfect and needs not to reform. (I try to find his full hadith and posted here)

Both Sunni/Shia reject your claim about reform.

Next time when you go to mosque, ask the Imam of your mosque.

Wassalam

[mike435]

i like that
"we are still the same fundamantle humane"
there for we need the same fundemental laws of life

so than my question is inquisiter why not than just fallow the torah after all if humans are fundamantily the same werent they the same during the timr of the torah.

and another thing
how is it that what saed says means nothing and what you say means somthing
why is your refrence better than his when infact he has more citings.

[mike435]

also another thing
i think what saed is saying is more sound than yours he is just using the wrong word (reform)
i dont think it was reform
it appears more as adaptation to a new adapted life
this means that look even thogh you are the fundemantal human of 2000 years ago your way of excistance has changed
there for you need to now adapt the fundamant rules of life(writing of the qouran) to your adapted way of life (use of scince and technology and human advancement) even thogh you are still that same flesh and body doing the smae thing with a changed way

[donsaeid]

thanx for correction!

without adaption human race was lost long ago!

[Inquisitor]

so than my question is inquisiter why not than just fallow the torah after all if humans are fundamantily the same werent they the same during the timr of the torah.

Torah and Christian bible, are not 100 % words of God. You can find contradiction and scientific error in both of them, on the other hand, I challenge you or anybody else in here to find a contradiction or scientific error in Quran !?

and another thing
how is it that what saed says means nothing and what you say means somthing

He posted some verses of Qoran. How can they have no meaning to me ? This is the book that I follow, and I enjoyed reading all of those verses.

All I said those verses had nothing to do with "Reform". That's why I told him to ask the Imam of the mosque.

This is what I wrote

The Quran is the same, the Sunnah is the same. What is the change? It's the change of environment.

That is the exact translation of what Imam Shafayi said. Donsaeid can ask the rest of the story when he goes to mosque.

I also provided some verses from qoran which clearly says there is no need to reform.

im sunni! and we follow sunna of Holy Prophet!

So do we

holy Prophet has said that my rules for you are for time now!

Provide me the exact hadith with the name of the book and page #, If you don't, forget it then.

You are breaking the basic tenets of Shia/Sunni Islam with saying that.

Wassalam

[donsaeid]

No! look Iran! they have mixed birthday and they of prophets death with one of their imam! they glorify Ali and others more than it is alowed in islam! i personally care more than millions of shia for imam hussain and respect him much! but shia takes that to a new level and put them as high or higher than holy prophet and even (astaghforellah) God!

Shia is a extreminized way of islam! why not everybody stay muslim? we too love them and ali and hassan are khalifa nr 4 and 5!

[mike435]

Torah and Christian bible, are not 100 % words of God. You can find contradiction and scientific error in both of them, on the other hand, I challenge you or anybody else in here to find a contradiction or scientific error in Quran !?

you sound very sure of this
would elaborate what test or standards you have used to come to these conclutions

have you applied the same rules to the qouran
or can you please show some of the scientific contradictions
or how it is flawed or how qouran is not
i leav it up to i recomand you open up a post and either attack the torah or defend the qouran

[Inquisitor]

No! look Iran! they have mixed birthday and they of prophets death with one of their imam! they glorify Ali and others more than it is alowed in islam! i personally care more than millions of shia for imam hussain and respect him much! but shia takes that to a new level and put them as high or higher than holy prophet and even (astaghforellah) God!

Shia is a extreminized way of islam! why not everybody stay muslim? we too love them and ali and hassan are khalifa nr 4 and 5!

I do not mind going off topic.

but shia takes that to a new level and put them as high or higher than holy prophet and even (astaghforellah) God!

Nonsense, since you want a Sunni/Shia debate, Let's go with what our books (hadith) and Qoran say ?

Not indivisuals, if you want to go with indivisuals, I can say Saddam, Osama and... . ( They think they are Sunni muslims)

You use Majlesi or Sadra or... and I 'll use Bukhari or ... to prove my points.

Shia is a extreminized way of islam! why not everybody stay muslim?

Now you are telling me that Shias are not muslims.

[donsaeid]

we have a thread in religion forum that questions pureness of Islam

"Is islam a perfect religion" is name of that thread!