Peaceful Hamas

[zubin]

what happend to borats sister? loool

what do you mean what happened to borat's sister? actually I don't ever remember in the shows or anything about his sister. can you remind me?

btw the laughing person at the bottom with your signature is hilarious!

[tapesh_borat]

what happend to borats sister? loool

yes, she is now number 2 woman in Kazakhstan and number 36 favorite animal. very popular for woman.


ladies waiting for call. I am filmstar

[mike435]

I get the upsetting sense that Mike has already decided on his view and is not willing to let go due to an obligatory allegience posed on him. If he even tries to understand what we're saying, he'll be forced to accept major faults with his allegience system.

Every time we get to a serious crucial point, its either straight-forward denial or something hysterical like laughing out of nowhere.

no ramin i get that feeling from you

you dont want to accept that hamas is bad for both sides
i say terrrorist you no xyz
i say xyz you say no xyz relavant to israel is zyx

and regarding israel and democroacy
fine lets say israel dosent have a democrocy
but atleast agree that theri system is much better and supirior
their is always discontent with in the government of israel from it citizens
there system i think in many way is better than the us
in us we couldnt have the democrats saying and opinions for 12 years just because the republicans had a 1 advantage the rest of the 49% got screwed in israel their is repersantation throgh coalitions example of that was when ariel sharon went from a conqueror for the state to one of i thin only prime ministers that forcfuly removed israeli setlers from land he conqured he gave back te very land he foght so hard to get why did he do this because the opinion if the nation had change the majority wanted him to give it back
the same way that now the majorty wants to be out of west bank

for you guys to say their is democracy in israel it is denail i mean yea probalt not the romantic perfect one but than that can never be achived

i wonder if the same principles that is used to defy israels actions are used towred hams and the PA.

[zubin]

no ramin i get that feeling from you

you're projecting then. I said I'd consider your arguments and I was very patient with them, but you think you're so right even though I've provided so many counter-arguments that contradict outright your arguments. You have constantly avoided them and shown an unwillingness to take the discussion deep into the logic and evidence of it.

[golgol85]

we have no right to tak about the situation of these people they live in hell bot israelis and palastinians
we sit here and talk about this stuff it so obsured when their kids and familys are dying in gaza according to jpost 15 of the dead were from the same family every day these people are facing death and fear in the face while we or atleast me in america live a compforbal life
the only fear the rest of the world faces is the bs fear created by their governments of terrorisom vs these people were they face terrorising moments all the time on both sides
it is absolutly obsured
instead of blaming one side or the other save the humanity of it by recognizing and understanding the situation and thene nutrulizing it

the middle eat was a better place with out these terrorist group with out hamas it is a great place peace can flourish
the world should understand not until they realize the damage these terrorist groups like hamas and hezbola and islamic jihad cause their will never be peac

why does 22 peopel have to die innocent woman and chilldren in gaza it ****ed up this is not right
this cycle of violance will only stop when the palastinians relize that it is their humanity that they are destroying by supporting terrorist groups like hamas,
when willl it be enogh howmany people have to die untill the world gets rid of hamas
how much more of this

you are right, we dont have a right to pick sides when it comes to war, there are no winners and losers. we DO have the right to talk about what is going on though, and what is going on is innocent people are being killed on both sides with the ones who are culpable living and being protected. death is inevitable in war, that is why war is so detrimental to the society. It causes families to be seperated, it causes fear, and it instills resentment. Normally war does not achieve the positive outcome it seeks, it just ends when people on both sides give up on fighting. Normally after war people realize wagging war was a bad idea. How about we stop sooner so we can realize that? How many people have to die mike before you realize that people are people, jewish or not and they all deserve to live? both sides are terrorists because both sides kill and instill fear. I am sure the Palestinians were against Hamas from the beginning, but even the majority of the Israelis who supported Israel's decision for war are against the choice of the government now. So the people of both countries are both on the same page in terms of being against the governmental ideas. Death does that, seeing people you love die does that, just being human does that.

dont sit here and tell me if israel had control of the middle east it would be a better place to live, because that is not true. The middle east would be a peaceful place if everyone minded their own bussiness and didnt exploit the middle east for their own benefit (whether it be the US, European countries or Israel).

How many PEOPLE (ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN) need to die before you will recognize war as a bad option mike? if most people in Israel think like you, then the war hala halaha is going to continue.

[mike435]

you are right, we dont have a right to pick sides when it comes to war, there are no winners and losers. we DO have the right to talk about what is going on though, and what is going on is innocent people are being killed on both sides with the ones who are culpable living and being protected. death is inevitable in war, that is why war is so detrimental to the society. It causes families to be seperated, it causes fear, and it instills resentment. Normally war does not achieve the positive outcome it seeks, it just ends when people on both sides give up on fighting. Normally after war people realize wagging war was a bad idea. How about we stop sooner so we can realize that? How many people have to die mike before you realize that people are people, jewish or not and they all deserve to live? both sides are terrorists because both sides kill and instill fear. I am sure the palastinians were against hamas from the beginning, but even the majority of the jews who supported israel's decision for war are against the choice of the government. So the people of both countries are both on the same page in terms of being against of the governmental ideas. Death does that, seeing people you love does that, just being human does that.

dont sit here and tell me if israel had control of the middle east it would be a better place to live, because that is not true. The middle east would be a peaceful place if everyone minded their own bussiness and didnt exploit the middle east for their own benefit (whether it be the US, European countries or Israel).

How many PEOPLE (ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN) need to die before you will recognize war as a bad option mike? if most people in Israel think like you, then the war hala halaha is going to continue.

if you got that from my saying it shows my inability to explain my self

i am against war my against exploitation and i am against unexxesary violance

but i am not a pasafist
i belive in self diffence infact i think it is imoral you dont defend your slef

with a group like hamas their are two opyions give in to what they want
which is insanity and you have to kill every israeli

or defend yourself against theme becuase now they will kill you until they get what they want

look as long as we are not in eachothers shoes we will never understand the situation
and that is the sad reality of the middle east

[golgol85]

I get the upsetting sense that Mike has already decided on his view and is not willing to let go due to an obligatory allegience posed on him. If he even tries to understand what we're saying, he'll be forced to accept major faults with his allegience system.

Every time we get to a serious crucial point, its either straight-forward denial or something hysterical like laughing out of nowhere.

I stopped coming to the politics section just because I felt that arguing without getting to some logistical point was useless. I am pretty sure Mike is set in his ways, I just hope he would look at the other side and stop thinking that everyone is just saying the opposite of what he is saying just for shits and giggles. War is not funny, and neither is death. When people in power dont have logic and dont have respect for human life, we get the khar to khar that you see going on in the world right now.

[golgol85]

if you got that from my saying it shows my inability to explain my self

i am against war my against exploitation and i am against unexxesary violance

but i am not a pasafist
i belive in self diffence infact i think it is imoral you dont defend your slef

with a group like hamas their are two opyions give in to what they want
which is insanity and you have to kill every israeli

or defend yourself against theme becuase now they will kill you until they get what they want

look as long as we are not in eachothers shoes we will never understand the situation
and that is the sad reality of the middle east

This is unnecessary violence. I think the Israelis have made their point loud and clear with the amount of Palestinians they have killed. I dont want to go into the numbers, but more palestinians have been killed that Israelis, every life is a life regardless of being a palestinian life or a israeli life. Israelis dont belive in talking, they believe in action. This problem might have been solved with words better than with guns, but we will never know since Israel didnt wait long enough to find out.

You are not in a position to be saying that we are not in eachothers shoes since you arent even in the shoes of your own Israeli people. You are sitting here in the convenience of your home arguing with me while others are sleeping in the cold and have to worry about waking up tomorrow or not. I realize that and you dont. I realize the same is for people on both sides, you seem to think that the Israelis are special. well newsflash, they arent special. neither side is better than the other. the sad reality of the middle east is that it is not self-sufficient enough to get rid of the idiots who think they can control it.

[zubin]

I stopped coming to the politics section just because I felt that arguing without getting to some logistical point was useless. I am pretty sure Mike is set in his ways, I just hope he would look at the other side and stop thinking that everyone is just saying the opposite of what he is saying just for shits and giggles. War is not funny, and neither is death. When people in power dont have logic and dont have respect for human life, we get the khar to khar that you see going on in the world right now.

yeah I've been looking into this issue and honestly Kantianism when applied to punishment, the idea of punishing the immoral being "good in itself", has been so engrained into societies and collectives that when they see something wrong or immoral they just look at the actor and nothing else, not themselves, not the context, and most importantly, not how the situation can be solved. that flawed Kantianism is the problem... the "categorical imperative" of "good in itself" does not logically apply to punishment, only to positive things like respect. but the opposite is taken so seriously by a few that find the idea catchy and that it serves their selfish purposes...

I hope this made sense and if it doesn't any place please feel free to refute me (or add), I'd love it.

[mike435]

a,erican british australian everywere they send their troops to iraq afginistan countries that have not hurt them no one says anything about it or its almost ok when israel goes in its own backyared to defend itself it is compared to the germans no the coquering coalition

why is israel so sensetive of s subject
day in day out millions dies intentionaly by people in power
israel makes a technical mistake and 19 innocent civillians die it is now the devil

[golgol85]

a,erican british australian everywere they send their troops to iraq afginistan countries that have not hurt them no one says anything about it or its almost ok when israel goes in its own backyared to defend itself it is compared to the germans no the coquering coalition

why is israel so sensetive of s subject
day in day out millions dies intentionaly by people in power
israel makes a technical mistake and 19 innocent civillians die it is now the devil

People have said plenty about the mistakes regarding the invading of Iraq and Afghanistan and how so many countries got involved. Here we are not talking about that, we are talking about Israel. If anyone of us here talks about Israel being wrong in its millitary tactics, it is not a personal attack on you Mike. It would behoove you to be less defensive. Israel is not defending itself, Israel started a war. Defending oneself comes from some other country illiciting war and then Israel would defend, but Israel started this war when its 2 soldiers were taken hostage. Just because day in and day out millions die doesnt mean its okay. A good quote comes to mind and I will share it with you "what is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right." War has become what is popular, its like a new fad for countries to wage war, evereyone's doing it and if you dont then you are a coward. Israel did not make A technical mistake, Israel's waging war in itself was THE technical mistake. 19 innocent people are killed. If they were 19 Israelis, you would be killing yourself right now, yet you maintain your calm only because those 19 people are palestinian. and you undermine what israel did, but if it had been the other way around, if 19 israelis were killed in a synagogue you would be quite upset, you wouldnt have said Hamas made a technical mistake you would be saying they did it on purpose, and then Hamas would be even worse than the devil. all i am saying is this, have fair and EQUAL standards Mike. When something is bad for one side, make it bad for the other side as well, hamin.

[zubin]

Palestinian PM offers to step down to restore western aid
Last Updated: Friday, November 10, 2006 | 5:09 PM ET
The Associated Press

Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of the Palestinians' ruling Hamas group says he is prepared to resign his position if that's what it would take to get vitally needed western aid restored.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been negotiating with Hamas for months to form a coalition government with his Fatah party, which, unlike Hamas, recognizes Israel and wants to restart peace talks.

Officials on both sides have said the two parties are making progress toward concluding an agreement on forming a government of professionals with few prominent political figures.

Haniyeh told worshippers at a Gaza mosque that western powers wanted him out of government, and that he was prepared to step aside in the interest of restoring hundreds of millions of dollars of withheld aid.

"When the issue of the siege is on one side, and my being prime minister is on the other, let the siege be lifted to end the suffering of the Palestinian people," he said.

Western donors and Israel sharply curbed funding to the Palestinian government after Hamas took power in March in an effort to pressure the ruling group to moderate its violently anti-Israel ideology.

The sanctions have prevented Hamas from paying a large portion of the salaries owed to 165,000 government employees, causing widespread hardship in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The international community, including the United States, has said it will not lift sanctions unless Hamas recognizes Israel, renounces violence and accepts past peace deals, something Hamas has so far refused to do.

[mike435]

listen i have come to this understanding

that both you guys are right and i am right

you are right when you argue that hamas is not a terrorist orginization it

you are right in many of your positions

the same is with me

we will never reach a middle ground either becuase our realitys are shaped diffrantly.

despite what you think i am no blindly buying into my idiology i had access to the same education system as most of you guys
most of my porfessors from philosophy to history were educated and objective and had the same view points as many of you guys

but the fact is they never lived it, if after all that my aperitiation keeeps getting stronger and the smae is true with yours it means our realitys are diffrnt

and in regards to in dono know israeli life, thats true but i am confident enogh to say i am much closer to it than most of you guys
i did live their for almost 3 moths
i lived with family, and i almost got to live in a kibbutz but unfortanitly war broke and the kibbutz i was going to go to got katushas, so instead i lived in another community amogs israelis
i toured the country with other people my age with vastly diffrnt view point many were what i called self hating jews but they were their too
i lived with soldirs and i tourd most of the country
i do know what it feels like when even when you are out with your friend on the town behind you mined any moment a terorist could strike becuase their is intelagnce out theri sugesting it and most of the times they got aprehended hours or blocks before they were gonne stike(insane inteligince"
i do know what it feels like whne for going out to a coffe shop you get exrayed everywhere you go
i know what it feels like when they see country of orgin IRAN on my passprt interagation becomes so much more intense

look i have understood that sadly their is no point is talkng becuase our realitys are diffrnt and i genuinly do belive that you guys are right becuase what you saw makes it real to you the same is for me, my diffrnt views vreats my reality
call it giving up but thats how i feel right now look

as i said no matter how much you explain to the mom who lost her chiled in the shelling she will see israel at fault and the same is true the other way the israeli to will never understand that the reason a guy blew himself up was becuase he was taking revange or advancing his cause for a natural human aspiration of having a home land

you see how the violance keeps on continuing it is really a nver ending cycle

this is when i say well the only choice is putting the guns dow and bringing peace

but be realstic you think if israel puts its guns down now people will stop, do you think enogh revange has been taken, or those aspiration have been accomplished no the second isralis put theri guns down it over for theme
but it is not true about the other side if hamas puts its guns down they two can start to creat peace
and i genuinly do hope that their is a time that hamasa sticks to a difur but sadly i have lost hope that it wil ever haooen becuse bleeiding is happenig to perfusly.

and i think this were i will want to leave it at

mike435
feeling very emotional as i write this i dout you i explaind my self exactly to what i felt but it is ok now i know for my slef what its liek

[zubin]

Hamas accepts peace talk plan

Envoys: Hamas accepts peace talk plan

SALAH NASRAWI, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 43 minutes ago

CAIRO, Egypt - The Arab League called Sunday for an international peace conference with Israel, and diplomats said the Hamas-led Palestinian government accepted. Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar, of the ruling Hamas group, endorsed a statement by Arab foreign ministers calling for a peace conference during a meeting in Cairo, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

The endorsement was the first time Hamas, which has refused to recognized Israel and renounce violence against the Jewish state, has indicated it would consider making amends with Israel.

"The ministers call to convene a peace conference attended by Arab parties, Israel and the permanent members of the
U.N. Security Council in order to reach a just and comprehensive settlement to the Arab-Israeli conflict on all tracks according to international resolutions and the principal of 'land for peace'," the Arab League statement said. Arabs want Hamas to endorse a 2002 Arab initiative that trades peace with Israel with land seized by the Jewish state in the Middle East 1967 war.

Mark Regev, a spokesman for Israel's foreign ministry, said he was not aware of the conference proposal, but said Hamas could not be a party to talks with Israel unless it met the international community's stipulations that it recognize Israel, renounce violence and abide by existing Israeli-Palestinian agreements.

"A multilateral conference doesn't make Hamas legitimate," Regev said. "What makes Hamas legitimate is accepting the international benchmarks."

Sunday was the first time Zahar had attended an Arab foreign ministers' meeting since Hamas became the ruling Palestinian party earlier this year. The Arab League had previously refused to let him join his counterparts unless Hamas accepted the peace initiative.

Arab ministers also decided on Sunday to end a financial blockade on the Palestinians in response to a U.S. veto to a U.N. Security Council draft resolution condemning Israel's deadly military offensive in the
Gaza Strip.

"We decided not to cooperate with it (the blockade). There will no longer be an international siege," said Bahrain's Foreign Minister Sheik Khalid bin Ahmed Al Khalifa.

On Saturday, the U.S. vetoed the Security Council draft resolution that condemned the Israeli military offensive that has killed more 50 people recently and demanded that Israeli troops pull out of the territory. The veto drew criticism from Arab countries, and top Arab diplomats from 11 countries gathered in Cairo to hammer out a response.

Hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid and tax revenues was cut off to the Palestinians after the Hamas militant group took power in March in an effort to pressure the ruling group to moderate its violent anti-Israel ideology.

But the economic sanctions have debilitated the Palestinians and have led to clashes between Hamas and the more moderate
Fatah party.

Arab League Secretary-General said the decision to break the Western-lead financial blockade was a message to the United States.

"Our message is loud clear to those who take unfriendly positions against Arabs," Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa told reporters in Cairo.

In an immediate show of support, Kuwait's foreign minister said his country would send $30 million to the Palestinians, and Bahrain's foreign minister said the Arab countries would begin contacting international financial institutions to get the money transferred to the Palestinians.

Mohammed Awad, secretary general of the Palestinian Cabinet, said at least $52 million dollars would be ready for transfer now that Sunday's decision was made. The Arab League should now be able to transfer the money to the government accounts, instead of to the president's coffers, he said.

"Most banks follow their governments. They must remove the blockade," Awad told The Associated Press in Gaza City. But he said some private banks will not necessarily comply.

The money would go to paying salaries, Awad said.

In a statement, the ministers also decided to ask the U.N. General Assembly to hold a special session to discuss the situation in the Palestinian territories.

Israeli artillery killed 19 civilians in a crowded Gaza neighborhood of Beit Hanoun on Wednesday, the latest bloodshed in Israel's weeklong offensive meant to halt militant rocket attacks.

The incident marked the highest number of Palestinian civilians killed in a single strike since fighting erupted six years ago, and undermined Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' attempts to form a more moderate government and renew a peace process with Israel.

During Saturday's deliberations in New York on the draft resolution, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said the Arab-backed resolution was "biased against Israel and politically motivated."

It was the second U.S. veto of a council draft resolution concerning Israeli military operations in Gaza this year. The U.S. blocked action on a document this summer after Israel launched its offensive in response to the capture of an Israeli soldier by Hamas-linked Palestinian militants.

[mike435]

HAMAS IS A TERRORIST ORGINIZATION ITS ACTIONS ARE THOSE OF A TERRORIST ITS MANNER IS TERRORIST
check out the video this is the diffrence between legitimate freedom fighting with force and TERORISOM

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/world/2006/11/24/damon****aq.sadr.ap