Democratization of Islam

[mike435]

regarding pork is t just consumtion
or other things to
like coming in contact
or using it in your body

[Borzo]

1- If they have done such a thing in Africa, It is Haram. True, the words of God doesn't change, but Islamic schools of thought have different interpretation over some Quranic verses.

2- Reba is forbidden, and I mentioned it in my previous posts

3-Then that God is no longer the God and that book is no longer holy. Does he know about future & Past ?

4- Quran is not flawed according to Muslims and all the rules in it (such as Reba) applies for all the generations, and if someone breaks it, has commited a sin.

Dear Inquisitor
I put number to each part of your last answer, Number 3 and 4 is out of this topic somehow, but if you want we can talk about that.

answer to nr. 1:
If different school have different interpretation which one has right? I am not moslem If I want to be a moslem should I read all of thought (Afkar va nazarat) these school and their interpretation? If we say Islam has 72 branch or sect (I do not know the exact word, sorry) and each has different branch, so my dear friend we should use the formula 2 power 72 big number of possibility! which one has right? And am I able to find the right one?

Answer to nr. 2:
Thats the right one. Conclusion (natijeh) we can not build a society base of Qurans law in our day.


We should talk in other topic about 3 and 4 but here just some point (eshareh):
Answer to nr. 3:
Ofcourse he/she knows about future and past, But God already had answered you:

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ يَدُ اللّهِ مَغْلُولَةٌ غُلَّتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ
و يهود گفتند دستخدا بسته است دستهاى خودشان بسته باد (سوره مائده آیهء 64

4- Not a good reason and answer, because still 6 milliard Christan saying we do not need Islam and the word of Jesus is Alfa and Omega.

با سپاس

[Inquisitor]

Salam

Dear Inquisitor

answer to nr. 1:
If different school have different interpretation which one has right? I am not moslem If I want to be a moslem should I read all of thought (Afkar va nazarat) these school and their interpretation? If we say Islam has 72 branch or sect (I do not know the exact word, sorry) and each has different branch, so my dear friend we should use the formula 2 power 72 big number of possibility! which one has right? And am I able to find the right one?

We worship Allad (swt) and share many things ( Holy Quran, Prophet (pbuh), Qeblah, Siam, Hajj). Shias have tenets of Imamat but Sunnis don't. You need to use intellect. ( It goes to Sunni-Shia debate )

Answer to nr. 2:
Thats the right one. Conclusion (natijeh) we can not build a society base of Qurans law in our day.

In Islamic countries such as Iran, you can. I do not consider governments of KSA, Jordan, Qatar, Kuwait, ... as Islamic.

According to Muslims, it will be when Mahdi (as) and Jesus (pbuh) appear.

Not a good reason and answer, because still 6 milliard Christan saying we do not need Islam and the word of Jesus is Alfa and Omega.

با سپاس

Where did you get that figure ? World population is 6,581,829,514. 03/12/07

Are you saying that 6 billion of them are Christians ?

Wassalam

[Borzo]

Salam
We worship Allad (swt) and share many things ( Holy Quran, Prophet (pbuh), Qeblah, Siam, Hajj). Shias have tenets of Imamat but Sunnis don't. You need to use intellect. ( It goes to Sunni-Shia debate )

ِDear friend, read the history and look around. In our time, they are killing each other. I hope it was not like that. You do not need intellect.
By the way, sunni almost has no right in Iran.

In Islamic countries such as Iran, you can. I do not consider governments of KSA, Jordan, Qatar, Kuwait, ... as Islamic.

??

According to Muslims, it will be when Mahdi (as) and Jesus (pbuh) appear.

And when they will come?

Where did you get that figure ? World population is 6,581,829,514. 03/12/07

Are you saying that 6 billion of them are Christians ?

Wassalam

There is ca. 5 milliard non moslem (2 or 2,5 are christian), what was your answer? you just correct me.

با سپاس

[Inquisitor]

Salam

ِDear friend, read the history and look around. In our time, they are killing each other. I hope it was not like that. You do not need intellect.
By the way, sunni almost has no right in Iran.

Extremists from both sides have declared war on each other. We condemn any extremists, wants to be Shia or Sunni.

Sunnis have their own Howzah and representative in parliament.

??

No need to be confused, it's very easy. " Blood Relatives "

And when they will come?

You mean the signs of appearance ? then you have to read Ahadith.

There is ca. 5 milliard non moslem (2 or 2,5 are christian), what was your answer? you just correct me.

با سپاس

New challenge is Islam.

[Borzo]

Dear Inquisitor
Dooste gerami fekr konam az onvane topic be door oftadim. man pasokh shoma ra khandam, matalebi ham daram dar javabash, vali shayad dar topic digari behtar bashad be donbaleh bahs beravim.

Amma dar morede demokrasi va inke be tarighi betavan Eslam va ya har dini ra Demokratizeh kard, man shayad ghablan ham goftam, In amri nashodani ast. Avamer va dastoorate khodavand ra faghat Oo (vey) ba ferestadane payambari digar va ketabi digar ke havi ghavanin be rooz shoode ast baraye bashar khahad ferestad. Hamantoor keh isa (jesus) ra bad az Mosa ferestad va Muhammad ra bad az Isa. va dar har kodam tebghe niyaz zaman va bashar ahkam ra behtar, taghir, va ya navin nemod. In sunnat khudavand ast va hargez taghir nemipazirad hamantoor ke dar Quran sharif amade:

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا سوره: 48 , آیه: 23
درباره كسانى كه پيشتر بودهاند [همين] سنت خدا [جارى بوده] است و در سنت خدا هرگز تغييرى نخواهى يافت

سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِي الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلُ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا سوره: 33 , آیه: 62
سنت الهى از پيش همين بوده و در سنت الهى هرگز تغييرى نخواهى يافت


البته میتوان در صورت لزوم بحث را ادامه داد.

با سپاس

[Inquisitor]

Salam

Amma dar morede demokrasi va inke be tarighi betavan Eslam va ya har dini ra Demokratizeh kard, man shayad ghablan ham goftam, In amri nashodani ast.

Arguement e man ine keh, Eslam yek system e "Perfect" hast va Liberal Democracy yek system e "perfect" nist and The only way to have absolute peace is to have only one belief system rule over all not by force but every man and woman must believe in it sincerely and personally.

Avamer va dastoorate khodavand ra faghat Oo (vey) ba ferestadane payambari digar va ketabi digar ke havi ghavanin be rooz shoode ast baraye bashar khahad ferestad. Hamantoor keh isa (jesus) ra bad az Mosa ferestad va Muhammad ra bad az Isa.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is Khatam Al Anbiya. Moses (as) and Jesus (as) weren't

[mike435]

Salam



Arguement e man ine keh, Eslam yek system e "Perfect" hast va Liberal Democracy yek system e "perfect" nist and The only way to have absolute peace is to have only one belief system rule over all not by force but every man and woman must believe in it sincerely and personally.




Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is Khatam Al Anbiya. Moses (as) and Jesus (as) weren't

lets say you are right
what if some people want to live a waisted life like me
and want to live like this than what

[Borzo]

Inquisitor gerami ba doorod va salam

Arguement e man ine keh, Eslam yek system e "Perfect" hast va Liberal Democracy yek system e "perfect" nist

Agar shoma mifarmaeed keh Eslam yek system "Perfect" ast, va in "Perfect" boodan ta abad edame darad, be goone_i Perfect boodan Khoodavand ra enkar mikonid. Dalil man ham in ast, agar begooim khodavand hichgah khalegh chiz naghesi nist va har ancheh Oo (vey) khalgh mikonad perfect ast, Argument shoma haminja gheyre ghabel ghabool ast, dar insoorat Hz. Isa (as) va digar payambaran (va ketab o dastoorateshan) Naghes farz khahand shood, va ba naghes boodan anha, naghes boodan khooda sabet khahad shood. Pas in argument shoma ta haminja naghes ast.
Na dooste aziz, ta zamani ke ensan bar roye koreye khak ast, payambarni ferestade khahand shood, hamantoor keh az Quran sharif ham aye avardam, in amadan ya ferestadane payambaran ke sunnat khodavand ast, be khatere muhbbat khooda be mast, choon ensan faramoosh kar ast. Va man nemidanam ke neveshtare shoma bar che asasi ast, zira khodavand dar Quran sharif mifarmayad:

and The only way to have absolute peace is to have only one belief system rule over all not by force but every man and woman must believe in it sincerely and personally.

This is the wish of God, by sending his massanger. But who listen

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is Khatam Al Anbiya. Moses (as) and Jesus (as) weren't

Ba tavajooh be aye Qurani ke dar bala avardam, dalil shoma sadegh nist, Osolan dar nazd khoodavand Avalin va Akharin mana (معنی و مفهوم) nadarad. Agar Enjil ra ziyarat konim, rahnamaii baraye dark ma az mozoo khahad bood:

اوّل: در سفر خروج بر يهود واجب شده كه سبت را به عنوان يك ميثاق ابدي نگاه دارند: بدان جهت فرزندان اسرائيل سبت را نگاه مي دارند و آن را در همه نسلهايشان به عنوان يك ميثاق ابدي مراعات مي كنند كه آن براي هميشه نشانه اي بين من و ايشان است.

مسيحيان و مسلمانان هر دو سبت را شكستند. آيا اين بدان معناست كه آنها اشتباه كرده اند؟ 17ـ16 : 31

دوّم:

[Inquisitor]

Salam

Inquisitor gerami ba doorod va salam

Agar shoma mifarmaeed keh Eslam yek system "Perfect" ast, va in "Perfect" boodan ta abad edame darad, be goone_i Perfect boodan Khoodavand ra enkar mikonid. Dalil man ham in ast, agar begooim khodavand hichgah khalegh chiz naghesi nist va har ancheh Oo (vey) khalgh mikonad perfect ast, Argument shoma haminja gheyre ghabel ghabool ast, dar insoorat Hz. Isa (as) va digar payambaran (va ketab o dastoorateshan) Naghes farz khahand shood, va ba naghes boodan anha, naghes boodan khooda sabet khahad shood. Pas in argument shoma ta haminja naghes ast.

It is not perfect yet. This perfect system Will be established after the return of Mahdi & Jesus (pbuh)

مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَآ أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَـٰكِن رَّسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ ٱلنَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيماً

Al Ahzab 40

Na dooste aziz, ta zamani ke ensan bar roye koreye khak ast, payambarni ferestade khahand shood, hamantoor keh az Quran sharif ham aye avardam, in amadan ya ferestadane payambaran ke sunnat khodavand ast, be khatere muhbbat khooda be mast, choon ensan faramoosh kar ast. Va man nemidanam ke neveshtare shoma bar che asasi ast, zira khodavand dar Quran sharif mifarmayad:

Ayeh nayavardi, this is what you brought: «ما فرقي بين هيچيك از رسولان او نمي گذاريم.»

It has nothing to do with Khatam Al Anbiya.

I 'll give you a simple example: You have three kids; A,B,C

You say C is the (Khatam) last one, but you still make no distinction among them.

This is the wish of God, by sending his massanger. But who listen :

God doesn't need us to worship him. Be it, it will be

The verse that you provided doesn't prove anything

Al- Quran 2:285

The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

اگر حضرت عيسي آخرين بود چرا حضرت محمّد بعد از ايشان ظاهر شدند؟ اگر كلمات مسيح نبايد تغييرمي كرد چرا حضرت محمّد قرآن را نازل فرمود؟

Many gospels were added to Christian bible hundreds of years after Jesus (pbuh)

Who said Jesus (pbuh) is last prophet ?

Periclytos

[Inquisitor]

lets say you are right
what if some people want to live a waisted life like me
and want to live like this than what

What is the goal of life ?

To rape, To murder, To oppress, ... ?

[mike435]

What is the goal of life ?

To rape, To murder, To oppress, ... ?

all i know is that i have more respect for the guy who does all those thigs vs the guy who those all those and says it under the name of g-d or for g-d sake

like hezbolah or
state sponcerd terror of Islamic republic of Iran
i was reading somewhere were in Iran the islamic republic raped these girls before they executed theme so they wouldn't go against islamic law of executing a virgin and remember islamic republic is the same dad to hezbolah(what you deem party of g-d).
now you are telling me that we are better off with fundamentalist islam.
also here are some other stuff you sound as if you are talking from a perspective that everyone was perfect
dont forget the young underage girl mohamad married
or wars that islam foght and not all defensive

look my above argumant is to demonstrate your weak points and show you how your thogh is not complete nor thought out
both you know and i know that "real Islam" doesn't do these things majority of Muslims despise these actions and are against it maybe not you because you are fundamentalist but thank g-d at least all Muslims that i have met face to face don't subscribe to fundamentalism of hate and terror. you know what even online i havnt met these type of people you are the first one

here is my real argument
l
look evil happens regardless of religion or absence of religion,
based on that notion it also means good will happen based on or regardless of relligion
why dont you consider all the aithiest who live for the sake of humanity, i think they are more ritcious than many because they live for the sake of humanity

botom line the same way that you cant say just becuse a person has relligion his gonne do good nor can you say a person who dosnt have relligion will do bad

i think it might even be revered many times i think if we were with out relligion we would be much better off

[Borzo]

It is not perfect yet. This perfect system Will be established after the return of Mahdi & Jesus (pbuh)

مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَآ أَحَدٍ مِّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَـٰكِن رَّسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ ٱلنَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيماً
Al Ahzab 40

Everybody can say it is not perfect yet, christian say the same to a moslem and saying when jesus return, then there should be haeven on the earth. Not a good argument.
You turn the discussion again to the last and first massanger.
Aye 40 in Ahzab is nothing to do with last, for the first is Khatam with Fathe and not Khatem with Kasreh on T (ت), Khatem is in arabic gerammer Esme Fael f ex Zareb, Ghatel, Fazel (konnandeh kar), if it was khatem, yes it means Khatm konande, Payan Dahandeh, but it is not. And if I say you have right, then Hz. Muhammad (s) after that is Khatam Nabi, and then we know there is a diffrence between nabi and Rasool. Rasool has, in the same time, the station of Nabi, He is the massanger, by his own book and rules. But Nabi has no new rules either book. He is remmeber people the word of God (نبی یادآور کننده و پخش کنندهء اوامر رسول است).

I wrote before, sending a massanger is a Sunnat of God, and after what Quran tell us it will never

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ
پيامبر (خدا) بدانچه از جانب پروردگارش بر او نازل شده است ايمان آورده است، و مؤمنان همگى به خدا و فرشتگان و كتابها و فرستادگانش ايمان آوردهاند (و گفتند (ميان هيچ يك از فرستادگانش فرق نمىگذاريم) و گفتند: (شنيديم و گردن نهاديم، پروردگارا، آمرزش تو را (خواستاريم) و فرجام به سوى تو است.)

Please read carefuly (I mean not just you the reader), F ex Mifarmayad Ketabha, ketabha, ferestadegan. I love Quran, but you know, you should read it carefully otherwise it will cheat you, Hala begoo che joory?

It has nothing to do with Khatam Al Anbiya.

The point is, that each massanger is first and last. So it has everything to do, my dear. There is No differance between them after what Quran tell us.

I 'll give you a simple example: You have three kids; A,B,C
You say C is the (Khatam) last one, but you still make no distinction among them.

I do not understand your example, C is the last one, what about the rest, are they last too? or are they first? what about them?

But No distinction, It is not what you do? (about Hz. Muhammad (s))

I can give you an example too, I have the super last Mercedes Benz, a brand New one, with the last Technology. And then after one year, you will say to me, Well Well, but my mercedes is last one, yours is old, with his one I can achieve my todays need. you see there is no first and last. This is man made, this in our thought (Brain). Sorry my english.

God doesn't need us to worship him. Be it, it will be

What is so the reason, that God had created us? It is just to worship him, you say, no?

The verse that you provided doesn't prove anything
Al- Quran 2:285

The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

It was mentioned in 2 verses. But I explained before.

Many gospels were added to Christian bible hundreds of years after Jesus (pbuh)

I believe in Almighty God, یدالله فوق ایدیهم, with his words Christian has build a great Civilization. Nothing can change the will of God.

Who said Jesus (pbuh) is last prophet ?

What is the reason that after so many years christian does not accept Hz. Muhammad (s) as a massanger of God, what do you think?

با سپاس

[Inquisitor]

Salam

I can give you an example too, I have the super last Mercedes Benz, a brand New one, with the last Technology. And then after one year, you will say to me, Well Well, but my mercedes is last one, yours is old, with his one I can achieve my todays need. you see there is no first and last. This is man made, this in our thought (Brain). Sorry my english.

Your example is about Quality, actually you are somehow making distinction which contradicts your point ?

Quran clearly says Muhammad (pbuh) is the last messenger and is the seal of prophets

Also there are many Ahadith both in Sahih and Kafi

(a variant reading [for khātim al-nabiyyīna] has khātam al-nabiyyīn, as in the instrument [known as a] 'seal', in other words, their [prophethood] has been sealed by him)

[Inquisitor]

Salam

I believe in Almighty God, یدالله فوق ایدیهم, with his words Christian has build a great Civilization. Nothing can change the will of God.

Not every word in Christian bible is word of God.

What is the reason that after so many years christian does not accept Hz. Muhammad (s) as a massanger of God, what do you think?

There are many reasons, I can start from Trinity to Wahabis

I do not mind going off topic but this thread is about Democratization of Islam !