Democratization of Islam

[zubin]

All those concepts are discussed in Islamic Philosophy. We cannot adopt or recognize them because they contradict Islam. For example, "Tathlith" is discussed too but we strongly reject it, because it contradicts "Towhid".

Islam does not reject essential truths. I talked about the concept of essential sameness, not Tathlith. Show where Islam rejects the concept of essential sameness.

I didn't know Shia Islam is this much close to Wahhabi Islam (according to you)

You shouldn't put words into people's mouths. I was being honest, and all I said was that all your response amounts to is a sort of Wahhabism, not that Shia Islam does that. Your response is incomplete and I'm not sure if you're competent enough to make judgments on the issues I'm raising. But I did not jump to conclusions on this and said maybe you didn't have the time or there may be some other reason.

With your response, I'm left with a culture that does not recognize its essentials in other cultures and this has a similarity to Wahhabism. No? Does your response not have the similar element of strict rejection of everything except acceptance of certain details of your view? And is this not what Wahhabism does as well?

Logic itself is not the truth.

No one in the world believes it is. Logic achieves the truth just like you said and every person in the world sees it the same way. My point was that you do not want to engage in truth-seeking through logic because this is the very endeavor that you are avoiding, though you praise it.

The ultimate battle and conflict can be nothing other than the battle between Islam and everything else!

What's Islam?

[zubin]

Inquisitor,

Before and if you answer, I ask you to review my views from at the end of the last page until now. I think you may have misunderstood my arguments. In any case, I don't think you can benefit in any way to make accusations, as per the below. To lose anyone's trust and respect is a loss.

All you've left me with here is a sort of Wahhabism.

I didn't know Shia Islam is this much close to Wahhabi Islam (according to you)

[Inquisitor]

Salam

I read them again but a bit confused about your arguement (maybe). I thought you were talking about the tenets of Islam and other systems if they have any similarities or we can recognize them and ... .

supernatural perfection.

Yes Every Man Moves Towards Perfection

Our perfection and greatness is not depended upon physical matters, that can affect our experience only on a sensible plane. We have to liberate ourselves from the straits of illusory lusts and physical pleasures and advance on the path of humanity by edifying our sensibilities, disciplining ourselves and become acquainted with higher ideas and ofcourse a wider horizon.

I hope I understood your question if not, be patient and repeat it again clearly.

[zubin]

Salam

I read them again but a bit confused about your arguement (maybe). I thought you were talking about the tenets of Islam and other systems if they have any similarities or we can recognize them and ... .




Yes Every Man Moves Towards Perfection

Our perfection and greatness is not depended upon physical matters, that can affect our experience only on a sensible plane. We have to liberate ourselves from the straits of illusory lusts and physical pleasures and advance on the path of humanity by edifying our sensibilities, disciplining ourselves and become acquainted with higher ideas and ofcourse a wider horizon.

I hope I understood your question if not, be patient and repeat it again clearly.

The idea is that if a different culture moves towards supernatural perfection, would you say it is compatable with Islam? I say yes, but you say no?

[Inquisitor]

The idea is that if a different culture moves towards supernatural perfection, would you say it is compatable with Islam? I say yes, but you say no?

You say yes but what is the "guide" ? What is that "perfection" ? How do you define it ?

I tell you what Islam says regarding "Perfection".

We have to see how they looks spiritually and intellectually, and what their peculiarities are; and do they so they may improve themselves, their society and other individuals based on that "model".

You can look at it in 2 ways:
1- Quran
2- Sunna

1- You read the verses of Quran regarding that topic.
2- The holy Prophet himself is an example of a perfect man in Islam. Imam Ali (as) is another example.

In Arabic, the two words meaning "Perfect" and "complete" are not exactly similar in meaning but they have an antonym meaning "defective".

For example, you build a house, and you say it is complete now ( prepared according to your plan ). You may call it "complete" and yet there may exist a higher degree of completion or many degrees higher than that, and we call that "perfection".

Andalusi talked about this topic in Islamic Gnosticism, Persians such as Rumi talked about it in Islamic literature long before any body else.

About the nature of the man, there are two: spiritualists and materialists.

Sa'di says:
"Man's body is ennobled by his soul,

And this fine garment is not a sign of humanity

If man were known by his eyes, nose, mouth and ears,

What difference would there be between a picture on the wall and humanity?"

Wassalam

[zubin]

Those are the sources I had in mind as congruent with this system. The guide is the science of human nature. Only, though the guide is the science of human nature, the science is not interpreted to be solely and ultimately based in science, but is itself guided by a single supernatural guide. The supernatural guide embedded in the science of human nature is what gives the striving to perfection in such a society direction and meaning.

Would Islam recognize such a system or is it infidel? To me the essence of reality is there, is congruent with the essence of Islam and the form won't matter for these reasons. Let me know if you want more specifics.

[Inquisitor]

Would Islam recognize such a system or is it infidel?

People who practice non-monotheistic religions are infidels. As I said, our guide in Islam is Quran and Sunna.

If you are a muslim, how can you have a better "model" than those two (Quran and Sunna) ?

Your guide might be "complete" but not "perfect" (according to Islam).


Back to the Democracy and Islam

In a democracy you supposedly would work out the vote of majority and their view would rule and become respected, even if wrong! You know very well that the vote of majority is NOT necessarily true.

[zubin]

People who practice non-monotheistic religions are infidels. As I said, our guide in Islam is Quran and Sunna.

What is "practicing monotheistic religion"?

If you are a muslim, how can you have a better "model" than those two (Quran and Sunna) ?

Through the essence of the same.

Your guide might be "complete" but not "perfect" (according to Islam).

How is it not perfect?

Other than a bunch of statements, what are your arguments here really? Where is the truth?

If you don't want to discuss this or don't have the competency, just say that.

Back to the Democracy and Islam
In a democracy you supposedly would work out the vote of majority and their view would rule and become respected, even if wrong!

Depends on the type of democracy.

[zubin]

What you don't seem to realize Mr. "Inquisitor", is that the Quran and the Sunna are not causes, but correlations with truth. Truth 'exists.' You have yet to make any argument against the idea that one can achieve the same truth spoken in the Quran and Sunna through different means.

Your reference to the Quran and Sunna prove my point. Within these sources are "essences", and it is possible that other cultures apply these essences. It is possible to understand such essences through generational transcendence (e.g. through cultural and parental teachings which are based on the essences combined with reason and intuition). At least, you have given no reason why not. If I am correct, then your reasoning thus far is proven befuddled.

[Inquisitor]

What is "practicing monotheistic religion"? .

Muslims/Christians/Jews/Zoroastrians

Through the essence of the same.

How is it not perfect? .

Read my previous posts, I told you what is perfect and what is complete.

Other than a bunch of statements, what are your arguments here really? Where is the truth?

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. You asked me what Islam says and I already told you.

" God is existence "

If you don't want to discuss this or don't have the competency, just say that

There is no force, You may stop at any time if you feel there is no "competency". It was never my wish, I just answered you according to Islam like it or not!

Depends on the type of democracy.

I'm not talking about Democracy of hundreds of years a go in Greece. For example, Liberal Democracy which is a phrase often used to describe Western democratic political systems such as USA, UK, Canada, Australia ... .

[zubin]

Muslims/Christians/Jews/Zoroastrians

What about American Indians who believe in one God?

Also-- I didn't ask what religions are monotheistic. I asked what makes these people monotheistic.

Read my previous posts, I told you what is perfect and what is complete.

I read your posts thoroughly. You defined complete/perfect, but you did not at all apply how my hypothesis does not reach perfection. In fact, it explicitly seeks perfection. You provide no application of your definitions. Yet you say:

Your guide might be "complete" but not "perfect" (according to Islam).

But you provide absolutely no argument for why the guide I state is not perfect. Do you see how you make absolutely no sense but mask yourself as logical?

Ultimately, what you say is either logic or rhetoric. I'm saying that you either haven't reached the level of finding truth through logic, or that you are not interested in logic or truth.

I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. You asked me what Islam says and I already told you.

Truth is found through logic, not a bunch of empty statements. Yet you claim to know something about logic.

And your statements about Islam are incomplete and contradictory at best.

There is no force, You may stop at any time if you feel there is no "competency". It was never my wish, I just answered you according to Islam like it or not!

You claim to have the answers about Islam but, ultimately, you don't. You also praised logic as a method as opposed to rhetoric. You criticized posts on this forum that were clearly empty rhetoric on the basis that they have no logic (to which I fully agree). I thought you were serious and did not have ulterior motives. You misled me, as you are not interested in logic or finding truth, or a reflection on Islamic doctrine.

I'm not talking about Democracy of hundreds of years a go in Greece. For example, Liberal Democracy which is a phrase often used to describe Western democratic political systems such as USA, UK, Canada, Australia ... .

What about them? You clearly don't have a good understanding of them. They have certain flaws that you are not aware of. The flaws that you think they have they don't have.

What you *might* be referring to, ever so unclearly, is the fact that these systems (with the exception of the UK), are based on a man-made higher law.

This led me to provide you with an alternative for analysis. An alternative to these systems is called ethical naturalism which you are not very familiar. This holds that no man made theory can guide people morally. This seems to have a striking similarity with contemporary Islamic and Iranian thinking. That's why I mentioned it. But thus far, you have no answers. I don't blame you for that, but I blame you for making statements without establishing them in any way. No one has such a right and it is disrespectful to the interlocutor.

[Borzo]

borzo jan! shoma bayad behtar az baghie bedonid ke hazrate rasole akram ba sat dorood bar inshon ferestade mishe va na ayn!

با درود و سلام
سعید گرامی بله اشتباهاً ع نوشتهام که همان ص درست است و مسلّماً درود بر او و خاندانش

برزو

[Inquisitor]

I asked what makes these people monotheistic

To worship one God. God of Abraham (pbuh), ... .

you did not at all apply how my hypothesis does not reach perfection

It depends on how you define perfection!?

Truth is found through logic

What do you think is the "Truth" ?

as you are not interested in logic or finding truth, or a reflection on Islamic doctrine.

You asked what Islam says, and I have answered you. Quran and Sunnah was the answer.

It would be helpful if you can read Farsi.



Here is a simple example related to the topic of this thread

[Inquisitor]

I asked what makes these people monotheistic

If you ever ask me that how can you be sure your God is that one God and not the Jewish God, or Buddhist God, I tell you again that there is only one God, whether we worship him purely or not it rests on us, but the point is that human was created to worship and if you are not worshiping God then surly you are worshiping something else without realizing it. Nowadays some people worship pleasure and what that directly provides it, western intellectuals also worship logic. Many people in the world are addicts, addicts to earthly things!

[zubin]

If you ever ask me that how can you be sure your God is that one God and not the Jewish God, or Buddhist God, I tell you again that there is only one God, whether we worship him purely or not it rests on us, but the point is that human was created to worship and if you are not worshiping God then surly you are worshiping something else without realizing it. Nowadays some people worship pleasure and what that directly provides it, western intellectuals also worship logic. Many people in the world are addicts, addicts to earthly things!

There are different ways of worshipping the same thing. The question is whether defining nature as God passes your test.

Regarding pleasure, I agree, but it is a narrow doctrine in the West despite appearances. A segment of the West advertises pleasure to some avail, both domestically and colonially. But there are competing trends which, if given more attention, can prevail over it. You should see the similarities Islam has with different cultures as opposed to the differences.

You can consider an extreme of my hypothesis for your own curiosity. I don't necessarily believe in it, but it might illustrate some relevant points.

Consider that everyone is ultimately the same, and everyone believes in the same thing but puts a different name or word on it. What would that do to your claims, and how can one negate or refute it?

A related consideration is the issue of understanding. When a person understands Islamic doctrine and finds the truth, doesn't the method of learning change for the person's child, and that person's child, and so on?

What do you think is the "Truth" ?

What true nature says it is. There are many false definitions of nature, but the right one is one truth attached to other truths. I'm asking if you think this is compatible with Islamic doctrine.

To illustrate it a little, the concept of Marriage can be used. The concept of Marriage is argued by some to be "unnatural" while there are arguments for it being "natural". It may be that the natural argument wins... and proves the concept of marriage. If this is so, then a focus on nature seems compatible with Islam... or not?

You asked what Islam says, and I have answered you. Quran and Sunnah was the answer.

My question was whether it is possible in Islam for the truth of the Quran and Sunnah to be understood without them.

It would be helpful if you can read Farsi.

I can, thanks.